Do Loud Pipes Save Lives?

753 thoughts on “Do Loud Pipes Save Lives?”

• digger, what you say might be true. but likely as not, the startled driver might act aggressively towards you, as you may have just pissed him/her off. i’ve had too many cagers act aggressively towards me when i am on a bike, even when i have done *nothing* wrong…

  ymmv,

  doug s.

• Look if you ride with loud pipes the driver in the car your buy for sure hear them and sometimes you can see them startled by the noise any advantage you can use helps all the way around the driver in a car don’t realey hold a cycle rider serious because it’s smaller like a truck driver don’t car about car;s this writer don’t like loud pipes so HOW would he know??????

• ” loud h-d’s sounding like anything you would hear at a race track? lol! ;~) ” ?

  Vintage “Funny-Car” drag races maybe?

• agreed that h-d’s are the most prolific offenders when it comes to “loud pipes”. agreed that folks who put straight pipes on their bikes, making them excessively loud, are disrespectful of others. but loud h-d’s sounding like anything you would hear at a race track? lol! ;~)

• only ignorant dolts use loud pipes, those who have no consideration for other people who are forced to suffer their illegal noise. our neighborhood often sounds like a racetrack, from within homes due to the use of illegal exhaust systems usually by Harley owners. operating a motor vehicle is not a “right”, and is supposed to depend on following laws which are designed to protect others – in this case people trying to go about their lives (e.g. babies and other sleeping) without constant interuption.

• gdohm, i agree. but, unfortunately, it seems as though those who are deaf, are also dumb and blind… ;~)

  doug s.

• I thouth this was about motorcycle and load pipes,what’s with all this. Political crap.

• There is no data on either side of the argument which I would accept.
  You can’t prove a negative, nor can you accurately document it. Nobody keeps a tally of the people who otherwise would have hit a motorcycle but didn’t because they heard loud pipes at the last moment. There could be thousands, there might not be any.

  If you ride with them and they make you feel more secure, they are worthwhile for you.
  If you ride with them and always feel that cagers are more likely to run you over to silence the din, better swap.
  If you feel cool because of the noise, enjoy the feeling.
  If cagers are laughing at you but you don’t realize it, enjoy. If they are, and you do, and you care – switch.

• dan, just cuz you say it’s so does not make it so. my facts are correct. PERIOD. all you do is incessantly babble they aren’t. show me YOUR facts, cretin. show me your “data proving otherwise…” i won’t be holding my breath…

  doug s.

  ps – i can’t stand the clintons. “lol”

• Bill, your logic seems almost impeccable….let’s follow it through….

  Since many drivers never see a police car, fire truck, or ambulance, while those vehicles are on a run, “surely” they also must never hear those vehicles either…proving, like all the “quiet pipes only” crowd adamantly claim…that those drivers would never…ever…ever…ever…hear a “loud” motorcycle either, therefore a rider could never…ever…ever…ever…POSSIBLY be any safer with the “loud” pipes, than without them….excellent point. lol

  Doug…still claiming your stats and statements are true, eh?…despite data proving otherwise. While we are all free to have our own opinions, we are not free to have our own facts…..the facts are the facts for everyone.

  You are a poster child for the futility of trying to have an honest “debate” with a liberal…they will never accept the facts if those facts disprove what they want to believe….tell me, do you still believe Bill Clinton….or the “blue dress”? lol

  Your mendacity knows no bounds.

  Loud pipes save lives!….and squirrels….and woodchucks….a beaver… a couple of deer…some ducks…lol

• I’m rather sceptical about loud pipes saving lives. Certainly if we’re talking car drivers being more aware of our presence. The average guy sitting in their cosy, bubbled, warm, metal cage can’t see bright headlamps and high visibility jackets. So it’s unlikely that they will hear loud pipes either. Cocooned in their little world, oblivious to and untroubled by anything out on the street.

• hi dennis,

  i guess you missed it when c-jay said:

  “Nothing sexier than seeing a guy on a deep rumbling Harley, either. (Obviously, I’m a woman.)”

  or does that turn you on, too? ;~)

  seriously, i appreciate the fact that you think your stock pip;es are plenty loud…

  doug s.

• i totally agree with clay on january 9th, been a rider for over 40 years have owned suzuki 1976 gt 750 water buffalo at one time, great bike, but my heart is harley and his article about starting it up is exactly how i feel. i currently own a 2001 hd sportster 1200 custom, love the sound, birthday gift from my wife, and do beleive loud pipes safe lives, but like any thing else in life, in moderation and not extreme. happy riding dennis kranes, bt the way my pipes are factory stock, plenty of sound

• l.r. ok sorry …thats why i left the n.e. in 1978 ..and went to the land of the pine ..most flat roads but all year to leave the wife at home and get out riding …

• Likely emptying sap buckets and boiling it into syrup.
  And hoping for another early spring like last year, so the 400 can get another early start before the inevitable April freak snowfall.

• lr what will you be doing bike WEEK AND 1/2 .?? room for one more among the 100,000 +

• A marriage made in heaven – hardly boring ! 😉

• Roy, that is a lot of great local information. I’d like to know a bit more but there’s no point in doing that in this forum. Drop me a line at vernon.rosa@childressklein.com so we don’t bore others with the conversation.

• vern let know …bike week is over a lot of area ..and more like a week and 1/2 best if you try for the first part say from march 6th wed as that fri and sat things start up .. sat the 9th is a 1 day bike fest in deland fl 17 miles from daytona …small town ,block off streets ,live sounds etc ..8-9-10 is vintage bike swap meet on 415 north of cabbage patch bar west of daytona.. all week is destation daytona in ormond bch off 95 .north of daytona 20 miles .the 1/2 mile dirt flat track races are around the 11th [ not sure ] west of daytona 18 miles off 40 at volusia speedway …daytona speedway [nascar ].track side outside all week has factory tents with the new models,vendors / live bands and one day where you can ride around the track [ you pay of course but get a tee ]. then theres main st. nut house street show that goes on all day and nite into the following am all week [ park in lot at the ocean center ] and walk the 1 block to it …also ”rats hole” bike show .. then the beach street on the river gathering ..daytona to ormond on us-1 10 miles wall to wall bars … demo rides out side the track or at the dealers … victory demo at the ”new symrna bch ”. dealer south us-1 -18 miles .. so its all spread out …bars , live bands and sat the 16th is the 200 bike race ..with wed thurs fri other races and the super cross inside the track one of the nights under lights .thats just a few of the places you can leave your $ …again let me know ….

• Actually, Roy, I live in Atlanta but I have been thinking of coming to Bike Week for the first time. I wasn’t actually requesting to stay at your place, but the idea of having a local show us places that are not overrun with tourists does have a certain appeal. We have not decided if we really want to be around that many people, but it’s good to get out of town now and then.

• vern stay with… sorry nephew and his sportster camping out with me, your up in north fla if i am right .. i can show you around if your in area …sort of a tour guide of the mad house ,and what to stay away from and the better area side roads to stay away from the back up lines at lights … if you want to go some where [ as all the out of towners do the main roads and block traffic , etc ..let me know and i can show [ride with ] the things that go on that are not in the come leave your $$ places ….

• Hey Roy,
  Can my wife and I come down and stay with you during Bike Week? You sound like a lot of fun to be around. LOL

• dan just 80.000 old gray,bald ,fat men with fake tats, i am bad tee-shirts,open pipes ,doing 45 mph …it just does not work …all cry ” freedum” but all look alike , ”wind in your hair” but all are bald .in one place at one time …bmw trailers.to daytona .. thinking they all are the sons of some body .for 2 weeks . when the real sons have not been to daytona in 20 years ..all took over by the willie g’s want a bees .. who never turn a wrench..a day in their lives.. come here and try to dump all over the place ..because they would never do it back home .. its them people dan who give all bikers a bad name ..70 year old i am a bad ass .. ya right . run and hide the 70 year old depends crowd is in town ..open pipes sure they are deaf from age anyway, …its time to grow up kids ..your not 30 anymore ..ride sure but ACT like a grown up …and your h.d. is not all american parts .. live wih it ..ride enjoy.. stop looking like a fool on wheels…and your 70 year old topless fat women on the back is NOT a turn on ..[ maybe to a 90 year old ] … loud pipes does not mean power when your all blocking the road doing 45 mph trying to talk to each other with your head sets and reading you sat.nav …christ its fla . all roads go north to south or east to west ..how hard is that ..and to top it off you have to drink and kill your selves on my roads every year ..ya you 30 again when you ride ..i know .. you did it then so you can do it now .. hey your 70 you can’t have a bowel movement with out help …stay home ..

• dan, yust cuz say something is not true does not make it so. i have not posted ONE false thing to this site, regardless of what you babble. ALL the stats i have posted are accurate.

  and, all i know or care about harley’s is that *i* don’t like to ride them, and i don’t. i don’t care, really, what other folks think about them, or that other folks like them. in spite of your delusions… sorry it seems to upset you that my opinion about them is different than yours…

  and you don’t have a clue as to what i think about the constitution. but i will give you one – i believe the 2nd amendment allows you to own a nuclear-armed cruise missile if you so desire. there is no restriction on fire power in the 2nd amendment. when it was written it was to allow you to own the state of the art, at that time. same applies for today.

  so, go ahead, keep ranting about those who would destroy the constitution. imo, it is the so-called “right wing”, (which, today, is anything but conservative), that is the biggest threat to constitutional rights. the patriot act? corporations have the same rights as citizens? women are not allowed to have control over their own bodies? yust three examples of right-wing destruction of constitutional rights.

  it’s a two-way street, dan-o…

  doug s.

• IPSO FACTO?….is that another socialist, Kenyan born politician like Barrack Insane Obama? LOL

  My goodness, look at that!…I complain about my, necessarily, very long post in reply to Doug’s long, “factually challenged” post, and VOILA!….it has reappeared ( though still “awaiting moderaton” )….thanks Doug. LOL

  Doug, you willingly post things that are FALSE in defense of your lying, liberal heroes, Clinton, Gore, and obama ….and, continuing to ignore facts, you actually BELIEVE they are true…”ipso facto” you ARE dishonest AND delusional…lol

  And Doug, I AM “chillin'”….that’s the way I try to live my life…enjoy myself, and let OTHERS enjoy themselves….until people come along…like the Clintons, Gore, obama, or you…who are not content to just live THEIR lives, but constantly seem to think that what THEY think, or like, is what everybody HAS to think, or like…basically the modern day liberal mentality of “agree with me or be demonized, attacked, and punished”.

  Don’t like guns…then NOBODY can have them…don’t like Cokes….then don’t let anybody buy them…don’t like SUVs…demonize them and say they are “killing” the Earth….jealous of “rich people”…forcibly steal MORE of THEIR money…..don’t like “loud” pipes….ban them….and the list goes on and on as the liberal/progressive/socialist agenda is 24/7 and has no ending.

  You seem to think that everyone who likes Harleys somehow doesn’t like…or ride…anything else, and you’re wrong….again.

  I personally own, and ride a Honda CBR600RR, also… I like it…it’s very quick, very fast, very nimble, very “quiet”….and extremely UNCOMFORTABLE…but, I like it….and, it’s orange and black…not too many of those made.

  However, my Harley Night Train is my very favorite bike. I like the way it looks, the way it sounds, and the way it rides. It’s a different way of riding, both bikes are enjoyable, but I would never want to spend hours on the Honda…while I gladly spend hours, and hundreds of miles, riding my Night Train on a given day….and who can say, maybe my Night Train’s “loud” pipes save my life so I can live to ride my CBR another day! LOL

  What I don’t understand…or like… is the constant attacks on Harley riders by people like you. Why can’t you just enjoy whatever bike, or bikes, you want, in your way, without constantly criticizing, calling us names, and demeaning us and our Harleys, and let the rest of us enjoy our bikes in our own way?…it’s called “liberty”.

  I never said, or implied, that you, personally, had anything to do with the deletion of my post of December 18, did I?…no….only that your long, factually inaccurate post…which you basically posted TWICE…was allowed to stay, while mine, which pointed out some of the false statements in yours, was removed….seemed a bit strange….kind of like how a lot of the information about obama’s background has been “purged” from so many internet sites now.

  As far as you not “ranting”…you’re wrong. Your angry responses became rants when you posted…

  .”dan, i have only one comment to respond to your IGNORANT NEANDERTHAL BLATHER .. [expletive deleted]”, on december 1, and then you replied to Chris with…

  “chris, this thread is about loud pipes on motorcycles. otherwise i would show you why YOUR RANTING IS SO IGNORANT – the product of folks who appeal to your basest instincts and fears, all the while stealing you blind. THANK DOG THAT THE OLDER IGNORNAT UNAWARE WHITE TRASH MEN are going the way of the dodo bird. otherwise, america would end up a has been 3rd world 19th century plutocracy”….implying, of course, that both Chris and I, fall into your “white trash men” group…and I, by the way, am PROUD to fall into that America first, Constitution loving, patriotic group, thank you.

  Chris, and I, were simply expressing OUR opinions…yet you chose to get hostile and attack us, a common modern day liberal tactic…yet you CLAIM that you are “only expressing your opinion”….sure looked like a wild eyed liberal RANT to me, and probably to that “white trash” Chris, too….but, I’m sure he can speak for himself, if desired.

  By the way, it was some of those “older, ignorant, unaware white trash men”, that started America, wrote the Declaration of Independence, and the Constitution, giving ALL OF US the very freedoms of being able to CHOOSE what bikes to ride, or exhaust pipes to put on them, that this thread is all about….did you even know that, or do you think it was the likes of Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, and the Kenyan, obama?

  Name calling, and not just disagreeing with another’s opinion, but demeaning the personal opinions of others….WHEN DONE FIRST…in any debate, is the territory of bullys and a common tactic of modern day liberals that can’t get approval of their ideas any other way, so they revert to force…either verbally or politically….case in point, obama-care. Seventy percent of Americans did not want it, but the tyrannical obama regime, in total control of the White House, congress, and the senate, forced THEIR agenda down the throats of ALL Americans….and you, and all the other modern day liberals consider that “leadership”….it may be…in Kenya.

  Those tactics are NOT “leadership”…they ARE tyranny.

  You seem to get offended easily over minor disagreements with you that others have posted here in support of “loud pipes” possibly saving lives. I’m not sure why that is, or just what type of psychological disorder it indicates….delusions of grandeur, paranoia, lack of self-esteem, penis envy, whatever…lol…. but it’s not necessary…after all, everyone here…except one liberal, ranting, fanatic in the early part of this thread, who actually threatened potential physical violence towards Harley riders…are bikers, likes bikes, and is, in general just wanting to join in the conversation without being verbally attacked…why not let them, instead of trying to childishly demean their opinions and bully them into silence?…it doesn’t change their opinion, it just gives them a poor opinion of you, and all liberals….kind of like watching MSNBC.

  I personally don’t care what bikes you have or ride…or what they sound like…that’s YOUR choice, and I am all for EVERYONE being able to choose the way they will “pursue happiness” ( another right given to ALL OF US by those “older, ignorant, unaware, white trash men”, that you, and ALL modern day liberals revile so much! )….THAT’S the difference between us….and, what a concept!…if you liberals would just “get it” you’d be much nicer, happier, people.

  I do, however, very much dislike dishonest liberals trying to sneak unwarranted political “jabs” into inappropriate situations or discussions, and, as you have seen, will respond accordingly….which ALWAYS gets them riled up and angry, as they love to “dish it out”, but simply cannot take it….another reason I despise modern day liberals.

  Despite your protests to the contrary, you DO rant…and, when you post “a ton” of faulty statistics that are meant to, in your mind, intimidate anyone that points out the dishonesty of the modern day liberals, and the disastrous failures of their socialist agenda…with obama being the absolute worst I have ever seen…. and how they constantly try to steal freedoms and choices from Americans…whether it’s foods to eat, drinks to drink, second amendment rights, more and more…and MORE taxes….or “loud pipes”…you are doing WAY more than just “expressing your opinion”…you are being either DELUSIONAL, if you don’t know it’s not true…or…you’re being DISHONEST if you know it, have see obama’s disastrous record the last four years, and still try to pass the lies off as true.

  I’m also wondering just what your remark about …

  “…h-d’s are slow, ill-handling, no fun whatsoever, FOR THOSE WHO ACTUALLY LIKE TO *RIDE*…” actually means.

  I have personally dragged the pegs, or exhaust pipes, on every single bike I have ever owned…except my CBR600RR…and, more than once, I have had to ride the brakes on my Night Train behind some arrogant “gen X, Y, Z” or whatever, on their “latest and greatest” sport bikes going through some tight “twisties”…despite their imaginary riding “skills”, I guess that shows that even those that THINK that because they are on a sports bike they are “riders”…sound like you?

  Why not just ride your bikes and stop attacking others….no one really cares what you or I think, anyway.

  P.S. CJay was joking with her “orgasm” remark, but you couldn’t even let THAT go without a negative comment since she believes “loud pipes save lives”, and that doesn’t agree with YOUR opinion about “loud” pipes….see my point?…why don’t you “take a ‘hit’ and get mellow, Mon!” LOL

  P.P.S…Jeez, Roy…you say “let me pass through without being trouble”?….then you launch into another anti-Harley rider rant?….

  So let me get this straight…YOU don’t like “old guys” on Harleys, and Doug doesn’t like ANY guys on Harleys, ( except Buells ) including females such as “CJay” and “Christine”….so just WHO are you inviting to your “party”?… a bunch of obama worshiping peg boys sitting around singing “Kum Ba Ya” and guzzling a keg of liberal Kool-Aide while they run decibel checks to see who’s bike makes the least noise?….finishing off with a rousing chorus of “Born to be Wild” as they proclaim, as Doug does, that THEY are the only ones “who actually like to ride”?…..think I’ll have to pass.

• do i need to cut off the bike week party… all this bickering .. boys boys ..right -left ,consv-lib. … ok lets settle it… the harley has two pipes on the right side ..ok done …loud ?? how loud is loud ..lets go deeper ”what does the loud really MEAN ” ..quit is -soft -nice-gentle -easy lets get along., let me just pass through with out being trouble .. so loud on a h.d is bad arse , nasty , see me- hear me -feel me ,touch me, fear me [ sing that to the WHO ] listen to me ,you feel the glory of me ,i am the….naaaaaa gray-bald old fat do rag wearing,45mph riders just does not cut it with loud pipes…pull a 1911 on em and watch them leak in their depends … trailer up behind their BMW’s wash off the fake tats and go home .to the office …. bad ares bike week daytona ,hell no one has been shot in 20 years ..the times they sure have changed .. its just not as fun as it was ..65-75 year old what-a-bees go a few rounds and both flat line on the bar room floor …sons of who ever they are not and all the head rags-do-rags, black vest saying how bad they are,tee’s with day-glow birds on them., long grey beards. still can not hide the fat beer gut ,double chin, plastic teeth…. yes see me feel me touch meher me i am all make beleve…

• hey dan-o,

  you need to chill, man! ;~)

  i have not written *anything* on this thread that’s either dishonest *or* delusional. yust cuz you might happen to disagree w/me doesn’t ipso facto make what i say dishonest or delusional. sounds to me like you need to look in the mirror to see what delusional is! ;~)

  and if you wanna imply that your post being removed had anything to do w/me, think again – it might be that delusion thing of yours acting up again. maybe there *was* something wrong w/your post, which was why it was removed? i dunno, i don’t even remember it; but just sayin’…

  regarding loud pipes and h-d’s, first of all, i have no problem with *most* bikes that are “loud”, h-d o otherwise. i have three bikes, they’re all louder than normal/stock. straight pipes on most *any* motorcycle, yes, i find them offensive. if you think i am “ranting” about h-d’s, maybe it’s cuz you are overly sensitive? and, there is the fact that most of the loudest straight-piped bikes *do* happen to be harley’s. if you heard my ducati on straight pipes, you would think a straight piped h-d is pretty tame…

  and there’s no ranting by me here, just me stating *my* opinion. as you are doing. you think loud pipes save lives? good on ya; i think you’re wrong, and i think they actually do more harm than good, irritating cagers who then drive aggressively towards motorcyclists. if you consider this ranting, again, it’s your delusion not mine.

  doug s.

  ps: dan, i don’t like h-d’s, and i *don’t* ride them. doesn’t mean i am not allowed to express my opinion about ’em. pretty simple.

• ok bike week daytona fla.soon ,so who’s coming… so i can stock up on beer and maps .. tour the h.d loud muffler world .. let me know …soon

• Glad to see the “debate” continues….

  Interesting to see that MY reply to Doug’s dishonest and delusional liberal post has been deleted, while HIS has been allowed to stand….must be another modern day liberal deciding who gets first amendment rights and what THEY will “allow” to be heard or read….that’s the liberal version of “freedom of speech”….as long as you agree with THEM.

  Kind of like what THEY decide is “loud” or not….you must be very proud, Doug.

  “but the problem i have, personally, w/h-d’s is not their sound,…”….Did you really write this Doug?….you’ve been ranting for months about this very thing!

  My goodness, do you “liberals” ever actually “listen” to the ridiculous statements you make?

  Loud pipes save lives!

  P.S. Doug, if you don’t like Harleys…don’t ride ’em…pretty simple.

• c jay, as one of my bikes is a buell s2, equipped w/the factory race header and muffler, i can also appreciate the sound of a h-d engine. it’s definitely noticeable, but not obnoxious like many of the straight-piped h-d’s. and its sound is “almost” as nice as the sound of my ducati darmah. ;~)

  but the problem i have, personally, w/h-d’s is not their sound, but actually riding one. i have had the pleasure (?!?) and i found that my gen-1 scion xb is far more entertaining in comparison. h-d’s are all show and no go. (maybe this explains your comments about sex?) h-d’s are slow, ill-handling, no fun whatsoever, for those who actually like to *ride*…

  ymmv,

  doug s.

• ha that wine is power,brakes,handling talking to you , your h.d is saying ”i am a water pump-i am a water pump-i am a water pump ” [ say that fast a few times ] ..just kidding .. each to his own …

• Thread got hijacked by people who should be out riding, letting their loud pipes do their obnoxious noise making.

• I just started my Harley after a few weeks of not riding because of the cold weather, and I must say: the sound of my engine, when I first start it. is right up there with having an ORGASM! Well, not quite, but I love it. TOTAL Joy and excitement! Nothing sexier than seeing a guy on a deep rumbling Harley, either. (Obviously, I’m a woman.)

  For me, those whiny sounding sports bikes just don’t make it…of course, if you want speed, it’s a different story. Each to their own. But those sports bikes whine through the night in my NY neighborhood because I guess that’s the time they can really use that throttle. The unrelenting whine is much more annoying to me than the occasional roar of a Harley, or other loud motorcycle.

  I love my LOUD Harley and I think in some cases, it alerts drivers BEFORE they see me, so I’m sticking with it.

• LOUD PIPES SAVE LIVES…SOCIALISM DESTROYS THEM!

  I got back from vacation Sunday and read Doug’s typically dishonest, liberal post. I wasn’t even going to respond, as it would require so much space.

  Then, I read it again this morning….

  But, this fairy tale of liberal “logic” and weak attempts to defend obama, his socialist agenda, and other lying liberals, is so rife with lies, that allowing it to go unchallenged gnawed at me like some socialist Kenyan jungle rat, so I simply could not ignore it any more, for, as Thomas Jefferson said,

  “All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent”….so, top off your tanks folks…this ain’t no short, “corner store hop”…

  Talk about a HUGE pile of “environmentally friendly, green technology, male bovine extract”! ….Something that dishonest, obama worshiping liberals are leaving all over this country these days!…there should be someone following them around with a shovel and a bucket….how’s THAT for “shovel ready projects”, obama-san-boy? LOL

  Doug, while I recognize that you are passionate about your views, your posts are full of half truths and outright lies, to which I certainly won’t take the necessary time and effort required to reply to ALL of them, as your typical liberal/socialist attempt to bury any opposition in bull crap is a common and dishonest technique of those that think that if they just throw enough meaningless liberal “facts”….i.e. half truths and outright lies…. at someone, it somehow gives them the “moral authority” that they crave, for, to liberal/socialists, their utopian “ends” justify ANY means, no matter how dishonest, and, with the dishonest, liberal mass media’s help, they MIGHT actually be believed.

  Where you a classmate of obama’s at those madrasas he attended in Indonesia?

  Fortunately that technique only works on the weak minded….i.e. air headed young women who actually believe there is a “war on women”, as obama falsely claims….latinos who are willing to sell their votes for amnesty for the illegal family members and friends they hide here in America…and 95 percent of the racist, violent, ghetto rat voters, who actually have WHOLE generations of family members who have NEVER held a job, and who can’t care less about America’s future as long as they get their “free” obama-phone type giveaways, that honest, working taxpayers pay for each month in THEIR phone bills….I will admit however, as the last election proves, those that are willing to throw the best interests of America “under the bus” for their own personal, and very selfish, agendas…. i.e. more welfare without the Clinton “work requirement”, which the “messiah” has changed, citizenship for illegal alien criminals, which obama fully supports, immoral and degenerate sexual perversions…which is their choice…but then demanding that the other 99 percent of Americans “recognize” that it is “normal”, and requiring the very definition of “marriage” be rewritten, which obama has fully endorsed….hmmmm, perhaps THAT is what really doomed the dinosaurs, lol….these people are now in the majority….you must be very happy.

  Let’s look at a few of your dishonest, hypocritical charges….YOUR statements are listed first, with my counter, VERIFIABLE, replies following.

  You said:
  – “Nice grade school insults. adds a lot to meaningful discourse”….

  LOL…and just what “meaningful discourse” are you talking about?…this one?…”dan, i have only one comment to respond to your IGNORANT NEANDERTHAL blather. [EXPLETIVE DELETED]”…OR, maybe this?….”.chris, this thread is about loud pipes on motorcycles. otherwise i would show you why your ranting is so IGNORANT…thank DOG that the OLDER IGNORANT WHITE TRASH MEN are going the way of the dodo bird….”

  Personally, I didn’t see anything “insulting” about Chris’s post…he, like me, simply remembers when people had a personal choice, and weren’t ruled by constant threats, intimidation, and more and more laws, taking more and more of our money….i.e. obama-care, which 70% of Americans WERE, and STILL are AGAINST…. and freedom of choice away every time some liberal/socialist gets another “great idea”….which is the modern liberals modus operandi….and a specialty of “The Kingfish”.

  You said:
  “Liberal mass media?” outright lie. unless, somehow radio pacifica, mother jones, the daily kos somehow are suddenly mainstream mass media, and i missed it?”

  Well, yeah, DUH…evidently you DID “miss it”, Mr. Rip Van Winkle…been asleep a while?… and you don’t need to read THOSE dishonest, liberal rags you mention. Just type in “reporters admit to liberal bias in media” into Google search and you will find a TON of reading on the “icons” of the liberal mass media ADMITTING that they are, and always were liberal, and “rooting for their team”, when covering democrats and that “of course” they “don’t MEAN to let it INFLUENCE their reporting”, but “sometimes it just happens”. The “big names” include Dan Rather, Tom Brokaw, and “the most trusted man in America”, the lying liberal Walter Cronkite, and many, many others…and THOSE guys weren’t even close to the biased liberal “reporters” of today, such as Diane Sawyer-ABC, Bob Schieffer and Katie Couric-CBS, Christiane Amanpour and Andersen Cooper-CNN, Brian Williams-NBC, Ed Schultz, Keith Olbermann, Rachel Madow, Chris “I get a tingle up my leg every time obama walks on stage” Matthews-MSNBC, and many others, and the liberal political show, “Jon Stewart”, whose aim is to dishonestly ridicule and discredit ANY Republican, while dishonestly supporting ANY democrat, yet falsely claims to be a “comedy show” only, and “non biased”….not to mention the biased, and dishonest, newspapers, the New York Times, The L.A. Times, the Washington Post, and others, and even the liberally biased, and highly “vaunted” BBC news organization, who commissioned an “impartial ombudsman”, authorized by the owners of the BBC, due to numerous complaints about “biased reporting and partisanship toward non liberals”, who decided that, INDEED, the BBC was VERY biased in their reporting of conservative vs. liberal politicians….check it out.

  You said:
  ‘While I am no fan of Clinton – one of the reasons being his twisting of fact, as you mention – his getting a blow job and not wanting his family to know about it, is a lousy reason for impeachment. and your statement about barack being born in Hawaii shows your utter lameness”.

  Clinton’s “Twisting of fact”?…now THERE”S an understatement if anyone ever heard one…how about lied his AZZZZZ off every time he spoke? Bill Clinton got impeached on two charges…perjury, and obstruction of justice…it had nothing to do with the blow jobs themselves…it WAS the lying and cover ups he tried to illegally do, his very aggressive, and totally false charges against the women that exposed his sexual abuses and harassment, even using his personal secretary and the lying liberal Vernon Jordan, and only dishonest liberals, like you, used that excuse then…and still say it today…and, as far as my “lameness” concerning obama…

  Really?…well did you ever read the biographical statement of obama’s book publisher, Acton and Dystol, that they used to promote his books…from 1991 UNTIL APRIL, 2007?…that’s right, 16 YEARS!…but CHANGED IT IN APRIL, 2007….gee, I wonder why they took it down and tried to cover it up AT THAT PARTICULAR TIME?….”utter lameness”, huh?….it would appear that the only thing “utterly lame” in this “loud pipes” thread is your dishonest, limp-wristed defenses of your totally despicable, liberal/socialist heroes. Here’s your “messiah’s” bio, which HE wrote….

  Archive.org shows that the Dystel website used the following biography for Obama as of April 3, 2007:
  “BARACK OBAMA is the junior Democratic senator from Illinois and was the dynamic keynote speaker at the 2004 Democratic National Convention. He was also the first African-American president of the Harvard Law Review. He was born in KENYA to an American anthropologist and a Kenyan finance minister and was raised in Indonesia, Hawaii, and Chicago. His first book, DREAMS FROM MY FATHER: A STORY OF RACE AND INHERITANCE, has been a long time New York Times bestseller.”

  Obama launched his presidential campaign in February 2007.
  By April 21, 2007, the Obama bio had been changed to state that Obama was born in Hawaii:

  Interesting, isn’t it?…and quite “coincidental” I’m “sure”, that they changed his birthplace from KENYA to HAWAII….AFTER 16 YEARS in print!… just BEFORE he would be getting real close scrutiny from people….and there’s numerous other such examples of obama…and his supporters…. being perfectly content to have it known that he was born in Kenya for all those years…at least UNTIL some liberal democrat read the part of the Constitution that said he needed to be a legal “natural born citizen”…. WITH TWO AMERICAN PARENTS…. to run for the presidency…that dang Constitution seems to always be getting in the way of some lying liberal, doesn’t it? lol

  You said: “Again, you show your hate and ignorance – it’s clear you hated barack before he did a single thing.”

  While pretty close, your statement isn’t quite true. I HATE communism, socialism, progressivism, and modern day liberalism, and ALL enemies of America, and in particular I LOATHE any American politician that helps the spread of these anti-American ideologies, unlike modern day liberals, who constantly lie and spin the truth, to DEFEND ANYONE who is anti-American. You see, I researched obama as soon as he announced his candidacy. There was a lot more information available then…African newspaper reports about how proud all of KENYA was that obama, a native born Kenyan, was a U.S. senator, interviews of Kenyan U.N. ambassadors reaffirming their pride in a “native son” of Kenya, statements about obama being a “citizen of the world”, being born in Kenya, having lived in Indonesia, Hawaii, California, and Chicago, etc, etc, etc….a lot of which have been removed from the internet now. I also checked out his close associates, and political advisers and mentors…Frank Marshall Davis, communist… Bill Ayers and his murdering wife Bernadine Dorhn, violent anarchist and unrepentant bomb setting terrorists…. Saul Alinsky, anti-American anarchist…Jeremiah Wright, racist hate spewing, anti-American “spiritual adviser” for TWENTY YEARS to obama, … and many other unsavory characters….and their hateful, racist, anti-American, anarchist writings….the “Weather Underground” manifesto, and, of course Saul Alinsky’s writings and ideas and techniques for reeking havoc in a civilized society, waging class warfare, and destroying America, which are exactly the techniques obama used as a “community organizer”, and is still using to this day….of course, you and other liberals don’t believe this guy could EVER do or say ANYTHING wrong….jeez, obama could piss on his shoe, and you liberals would blame it on the wind!….but, you are seriously mistaken….he is deliberately trying to bring this society down….it’s obvious to anyone that knows about his background, and sees the policies he is advocating.

  While obama denies his CLOSE association with the anti-American terrorists, Bill Ayers and Bernadine Dorhn ( who actually killed someone), and describes Ayers as “just a guy in the neighborhood”, obama and Ayers have both sat on the board of of at least one corporate organization, and obama actually launched his Illinois state senator campaign in the home of Bill Ayers….CLEARLY demonstrating that Bill Ayers is NOT just “some guy in the neighborhood”, as obama so dishonestly claims…but WHERE, are the “HONEST” investigative reporters” on this story?…it’s another example of the lying, liberal mass media “in action”….or should I say “inaction”?

  Here is a quotation from obama’s friend, Bill Ayers’ 1974 “Weather Underground” manifesto, “: Prairie Fire: The Politics of Revolutionary Anti-Imperialism.”….

  “The only path to the final defeat of imperialism and the building of socialism is revolutionary war…. Socialism is the violent overthrow of the bourgeoisie, the establishent of the dictatorship of the proletariat, and the eradication of the social system based on profit …. Revolutionary war will be complicated and protracted…. It includes mass struggle and clandestine struggle, peaceful and violent, political and economic, cultural and military, where all forms are developed in harmony with the armed struggle. Without mass struggle there can be no revolution. Without armed struggle there can be no victory.”

  Ayers has never repudiated nor apologized for any of his statements, or his bombings, in fact, he says he didn’t bomb enough. Well meaning, but naive…or maybe just weak minded, liberals like YOU, Doug…. can blindly accept and defend obama and his destructive policies with your constant denials, excuses, and “lame” comebacks, but obama’s background, his close associates, his racist, anti-American, class warfare policies, and anti-capitalism speeches make it quite clear…for all those who will just LOOK…. that obama has no love for this country, or the Constitution, and is bent on bringing down America, the middle class, capitalism, and everything else that has made America the special country it is…his disastrous record is clear now….shame on YOU for condoning it.

  You said: …”But in fact, more oil exploration and production has occurred under Barrack’s administration than any other”….

  Oh really?….while it’s true that production is high, it is NOT due to obama’s policies. In fact, obama has shut down ….FOR FIVE YEARS!….all East Coast Atlantic drilling, and some in the Gulf of Mexico….costing thousands of jobs and limiting America’s domestic supply of oil, making us potentially MORE dependent on foreign oil. The higher domestic exploration, drilling, and production, is because of drilling on STATE and PRIVATE land, and NOT federal lands that obama can, and has, choked off. Also, the Congressional Service Report (CRS), U.S. OIL IMPORTS AND EXPORTS, and data from the ENERGY INFORMATION ADMINISTRATION (EIA), show that domestic oil production increased at a similar rate during 2004 to 2008, the last four years of the George W. Bush administration. In other words, the increase in domestic oil production under obama is, in reality, a continuation of a trend which began under President Bush….

  Also, “According to U.S. Oil Imports and Exports, 96% of the increase in domestic oil production since 2007 has taken place on PRIVATELY OWNED, NON FEDERAL LANDS, thus making it oil and gas production in which PRESIDENTS OBAMA AND BUSH HAD LITTLE OR NO ROLE.”…so, Doug, you either know these facts, and like obama did in the debates, lie about them….or you simply choose to believe every single LIE that this arrogant, egotistical, “king-wanna-be” utters from his lying lips…which haven’t stopped “uttering” for FIVE YEARS NOW!

  As far as the coal industry, while he hasn’t shut it down YET, he has stated that anyone that wants to build a coal burning power plant WILL go bankrupt due to HIS continuous “racheting up” of the regulations, and restrictions that HE will see are placed on them.

  If your beloved obama is so concerned with “carbon”, why doesn’t he outlaw the sale of American coal to places like China, for example, where they have better sense than the liberals in this country, and are building, and using coal burning, power producing facilities to help build THEIR economies….guess “obi wan obama” isn’t so concerned about THEIR “carbon footprint”, eh?…hypocrite.

  With very little effort, it is easy to show the contemptuous lies and half truths of you dishonest, obama worshiping liberals….not much to it. Your INTENTIONS “may” be good, but your deliberate presentations of half truths and out right lies….as obama has done now for 5 years….is deplorable, and hurting America.

  Concerning Clinton and James Carville, You said, “Your lies and distortions here are lame.”….

  This ‘brilliant’ come back simply ‘cut me to the quick”, Doug…really. Yet, you didn’t point out just WHAT about my remarks about the despicable Slick Willie, or sniveling James Carville was a “lie”, a “distortion”, or was “lame” in any way…no lies, no distortions, they are all facts, actually happened, can be easily verified, and so, you are simply wrong. Also, you imply that I am a mysogynist, but defend the despicable behavior of Bill Clinton….well, here’s a little list for you containing the names of some of the women that had “dealings” with Slick Willie….

  Clinton Misogyny – Sex
  Juanita Broaddrick (AR)- rape
  Eileen Wellstone (Oxford) – rape
  Elizabeth Ward Gracen – rape – quid pro quo, post incident intimidation
  Regina Hopper Blakely – “forced himself on her, biting, bruising her”
  Kathleen Willey (WH) – sexual assault, intimidations, threats
  Sandra Allen James (DC) – sexual assault
  22 Year Old 1972 (Yale) – sexual assault
  Kathy Bradshaw (AK) – sexual assault
  Cristy Zercher – unwelcomed sexual advance, intimidations
  Paula Jones (AR) – unwelcomed sexual advance, exposure, bordering on sexual assault
  Carolyn Moffet -unwelcomed sexual advance, exposure, bordering on sexual assault
  1974 student at University of Arkansas – unwelcomed physical contact
  1978-1980 – seven complaints per Arkansas state troopers
  Monica Lewinsky – quid pro quo, post incident character assault
  Gennifer Flowers – quid pro quo, post incident character assault
  Dolly Kyle Browning – post incident character assault
  Sally Perdue – post incident threats
  Betty Dalton – rebuffed his advances, married to one of his supporters
  Denise Reeder – apologetic note scanned

  “Awe inspiring, isn’t it?…you liberals might even say “Homeric”!….you must be very proud! lol Should I get you a top hat and cane while you “tap dance” a “defense” for one of your liberal heroes?…something like “Oh yeah, well Nixon blah, blah, blah” , and, “Well, Bush blah, blah, blah”, is quite common with you liberals, and is quite the comeback, I must say….NOT! Oh, by the way, white liberal politicians “tap dance” to get out of trouble when caught in one of their unending lies…liberal negro politicians, like “the messiah”, obama,…”shuck and jive” their way out…it’s not racist, it’s just a cultural thing..kind of like “Soul Train”. lol

  YOU SAID:
  ” – while the deficit has increased ~ $1t unfunded prescription drug plan/big pharmasy give-away, two unfunded wars, and the revenue loss from the resultant economic collapse.”

  You liberals just LOVE to throw around the term “unfunded wars”, don’t you. The truth is that funding for both wars is considered “unfunded” simply because the funds are not listed in the annual budget…however, the “emergency appropriations” bills, submitted to congress for the wars has been voted on by the congress each year, AUTHORIZING the funds…and, between 2007-2011, the lying liberal democrats CONTROLLED congress and the senate, as well as the White House, from 2009-2011…. so, they could have EASILY NOT VOTED FOR the requested emergency funding….but, they DID…so, take up your dishonest charge with your lying, liberal, socialist obama worshipers….

  By the way, I would have much preferred that we just bomb the crap out of the barbaric muslims and left, without risking patriotic American soldiers on the ground….and one other note…while the lying obama claims HE “ended the war in Iraq”, it was actually President Bush who signed the Status of Forces Agreement with Iraq to have ALL American troops OUT of Iraq by 31 December, 2011. This agreement was signed on 14 December 2008…the day of the well televised Iraqi “shoe throwing” incident….I don’t believe your messiah, obama, had been sworn in yet, as the first foreign born, illegitimate president at that point….but then, you can always REWRITE history, as dishonest liberals are always trying to do….and NOW, your “messiah” wants congress to give HIM total authority for an UNLIMITED DEBT CEILING!….can you say “KING obama”?

  You said:…– $1t unfunded prescription drug plan/big pharmasy give-away,”

  Another “half truth”, but actually, more of a lie, as explained previously about anything “unfunded”. The “prescription drug plan” has estimated costs of one trillion over a TEN YEAR PERIOD. While I agree that anytime the government gets involved with ANYTHING they screw things up….all the more reason to NOT have obama-care control 1/6 of the American economy! The prescription drug plan is far too complicated due to far too many choices and options, and could…and should…be streamlined, with fewer choices, and less cost to the mostly elderly people who are on it. However, Hillary tried something similar in her failed “Hillary Care” that all you liberals supported, and which was complicated and 1300 pages long….BUT PALES IN COMPARISON TO THE DISHONEST JOB KILLING, TAX INCREASING, MEDICAL CARE RESTRICTING, DEATH PANEL CONTAINING, 2500 PLUS PAGED MONSTROSITY, THAT YOU SO LOVINGLY PROMOTE….OBAMA-CARE…..

  And by the way, checkout THIS latest story about your messiah’s precious obama-care…
  Heh: 16 Democrat senators who voted for Obamacare try to delay implementation of ‘job killing’ Obamacare tax

  By Doug Powers • December 12, 2012 03:09 PM
  ……..
  “Sixteen Democratic senators who voted for the Affordable Care Act ( obama-care) are asking that one of its fundraising mechanisms, a 2.3 percent tax on medical devices scheduled to take effect January 1, be delayed. Echoing arguments made by Republicans against Obamacare, the Democratic senators say the levy will cost jobs — in a statement Monday, Sen. Al Franken called it a “job-killing tax” — and also impair American competitiveness in the medical device field.

  The senators, who made the request in a letter to Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, are Franken, Richard Durbin, Charles Schumer, Patty Murray, John Kerry, Kirsten Gillibrand, Amy Klobuchar, Joseph Lieberman, Ben Nelson, Robert Casey, Debbie Stabenow, Barbara Mikulski, Kay Hagan, Herb Kohl, Jeanne Shaheen, and Richard Blumenthal. All voted for Obamacare.

  Two other Democrats, senators-elect Joe Donnelly and Elizabeth Warren, also signed the letter. Donnelly voted for Obamacare as a member of the House. Warren was not in Congress at the time.”…..Gee, I guess these lying socialists SHOULD HAVE READ THE BILL BEFORE THEY PASSED IT…YA’ THINK?

  You said:
  “…ruinous tax cuts”…

  There is nothing “ruinous” about tax cuts…as even democrats JOHN KENNEDY, AND BILL CLINTON, knew and learned. John Kennedy lowered the highest tax rate from 90 percent to 70 percent, with very good results, and even the lying TAX INCREASING liberal, Slick Willie Clinton, learned THAT….after being forced into a TAX CUT, and LESS SPENDING, by the REPUBLICAN CONTROLLED congress in 1997….tax CUTS usually allow a slow economy to “take off”, resulting in even MORE tax money coming into the government coffers, and did so again in the last three years of the Clinton presidency, and ALLOWING the economy to take off. However, I agree that the Bush tax cuts were not well implemented, and were too slowly phased in, which almost all economists agree that an immediate tax cut…with NO “sunset” time limit, such as the Bush cuts had….always boosts the economy, IF accompanied by a DECREASE IN SPENDING, which Bush did not do…one would have thought he WAS a democrat with all his spending. However, Bush’s spending absolutely PALES in comparison to the deliberate, debt increasing, economy crushing, OUT OF CONTROL SPENDING of the Kenyan….which is what is TRULY killing America’s economy….THAT is the REAL PROBLEM!

  It’s pretty basic…going into debt?….CUT SPENDING!…please pass that along to your messiah, obama.

  You said:
  “… and the revenue loss from the resultant economic collapse.”

  The truth is, that the economic collapse came about due to the “housing bubble” collapsing, and the liberal democrats forcing both Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac…both tax payer funded programs…. into buying up far too many risky mortgages…because they, like always, see taxpayer money as “free money”, which, if lost, “hurts no one”….they were proven very WRONG then, as it led to the bank failures, and, while Bush gets the TOTAL blame from obama, the lying democrats, and the liberal mass media, the truth is that there was time to avert the disaster, and even President Bush, and John McCain warned that the democrat controlled congress needed to act on the looming disaster…but, they didn’t, due to the liberal death grip on congressional action by the incredibly ignorant Speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi, who continually REFUSED to even let Republican sponsored bills to avert the impending disaster be introduced on the floor of the House of Representatives….

  and THAT set into motion the “snowball rolling down hill” effect of crushing the economy…while both parties share blame in the fiasco, clearly, the democrats have the major blame for it…… even the liberal rag, “TIME” magazine, in it’s list of “25 People to Blame” for the collapse of the economy, rate YOUR old buddy, “Slick Willie Clinton” as NUMBER ONE!…with President Bush as second….also, I would suggest you read a book from Gretchen Morgenson, who works at the VERY liberal New York Times, certainly no defender of Republicans….it MIGHT make you rethink where you, like all liberals, place the blame for the meltdown…Here’s a little blurb about the book….

  “Reckless Endangerment: How Outsized Ambition, Greed, and Corruption Led to Economic Armageddon”…By Gretchen Morgenson, one of America’s best business journalists who is currently at The New York Times, and noted financial analyst Joshua Rosner, Reckless Endangerment gives the best available account of how the growing chaos in the mortgage and personal finance markets and the rampant bundling of dubious loans into exotically toxic securities plunged the world, and millions of American families, into the gravest financial crisis since World War Two. It is gripping reading as well, and its explanations are clear enough that readers without any background in finance will have no trouble following the plot. The villains? An unholy alliance between Wall Street, the Democratic establishment, community organizing groups like ACORN and La Raza, and politicians like Barney Frank, Nancy Pelosi and Henry Cisneros. (Frank got a cushy job for a lover, Pelosi got a job and layoff protection for a son, Cisneros apparently got a license to mint money bilking Mexican-Americans of their life savings in cheesy housing developments.).

  AGAIN, as I said, there IS a lot of blame to go around TO BOTH PARTIES! as ALL politicians are liars and thieves. I just get sick of dishonest liberals and the corrupt liberal mass media, constantly placing ALL the blame on President Bush.

  You said: “Your comment about the chevy volt – also stupid – its development was well under way, long before barack was in the white house.”

  “Stupid”, huh?…Yes, the Chevy Volt was “well under way long before barack was in the white house”….I was actually one of the “public” that got to see the CONCEPT car in 2006…and “CONCEPT CAR” was exactly what it WAS, as GM KNEW and ADMITTED that it simply was NOT READY FOR MASS PRODUCTION due to it’s numerous limitations as far as distance between recharging, the lack of available recharging stations, and the worry about the FUTURE COSTS of electric power….their estimate was that the VOLT was about a DECADE away from production…however, with obama’s utopian, but irrational insistence on “green technologies” being FORCED on the American economy NOW, he basically gave GM a MULTI BILLION DOLLAR BRIBE to rush the “not ready for prime time” Chevy Volt into production…because “obama knows best for America”.

  The Volt is impractical at present, and here’s a little story of just what “obama’s folly” is REALLY doing in the market place…..

  “From Wikipedia”…The Chevrolet Volt concept car debuted at the January 2007 North American International Auto Show, becoming the first-ever series plug-in hybrid concept car shown by a major car manufacturer.The Volt was named “American Car of the Year, 2011 World Green Car and 2012 European Car of the Year. However there has been some controversy and concerns regarding the Volt expressed in the media. These include the EXTENT OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT …( I.E. OBAMA.)… participation in the Volt development during General Motors’ 2009 government-led bankruptcy[5][6][7] and concerns about the battery pack fire risk in the weeks following a crash test that the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NTHSA) performed on a Volt in 2011.[6][7][8] At the completion of its investigation NHTSA stated that it has concluded that “no discernible defect trend exists.”….( I’m “sure” that there was “no undue influence” from the White House on THAT particular “conclusion”…aren’t you?)

  ….and, from USA TODAY, 22 September, 2012:….

  “Discounts run as high as $10,000 per Volt, according to figures from TrueCar.com, an auto-pricing website….GM is LOSING THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS ON EVERY VOLT. News agency Reuters recently estimated losses run up to $49,000 per car. GM denied the report….” Gee, I wonder if the fact that obama spent BILLIONS of TAXPAYER DOLLARS to bribe GM into bringing this not-ready for mass production vehicle to market has anything to do with GM’s denial?….but then, the American taxpayer….NOT GM….has footed the bill here, just as in obama’s SOLYNDRA payoffs, the A123 battery manufacturer scam, and the totally dishonest “1200 SHOVEL READY PROJECTS” LIE claimed by “Curious George”. GM would NOT have rushed this car into production without pressure ….AND BILLIONS OF TAXPAYER DOLLARS….from “sometimes-you-have-to-roll-the-dice-obama”.

  Here’s another story about the GM bailout that you can read at http://nlpc.org/stories/2012/10/18/obama%E2%80%99s-gm-bailout-nothing-brag-about….but I’ll present a little sample for you….

  “The cost to taxpayers to get GM through the bankruptcy process was $50 billion. The government, in return, received a majority ownership of what would become “New” General Motors. Canadian taxpayers put in over $10 billion making the total cash cost over $60 billion. The entire market cap for GM is currently under $40 billion and the American taxpayers’ loss stands at around $15 billion.

  Existing GM shareholders…lost everything and those who lent money to the company, primarily old GM bondholders, lost almost everything.

  27 billion of bondholder debt was erased ( in other words the “little guys” got totally screwed by obama ) and bondholders were given a very small piece of the new GM pie. The POLITICALLY FAVORED UAW FARED MUCH BETTER under the Obama plan as its jobs and benefits were preserved and they received the second largest ownership stake in new GM, behind American taxpayers.

  Less than half of GM’s jobs are American. 98,000, to be precise. Somehow this 98,000 figure turned into millions of potential jobs that could have been lost as claims were made that the entire industry would have collapsed if the bankruptcy process was not done EXACTLY as the Obama Administration dictated.

  Also, non-union jobs were not deemed as important as union jobs when the Task Force insisted that thousands of dealerships be closed”…..AND….

  from http://www.outsidethebeltway.com, comes THIS little story….

  General Motors Loses Nearly $50,000 Every Time It Sells A Chevy Volt
  DOUG MATACONIS · TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 11, 2012 …..THE CHEVY VOLT, THE MOSTLY ELECTRIC CAR THAT PRESIDENT OBAMA , AND GENERAL MOTORS OFFICIALS, HAVE TOUTED AS THE FUTURE OF THE AMERICAN CAR INDUSTRY, IS A MASSIVE MONEY LOSER THAT ANY SANE BUSINESSMAN WOULD STOP MAKING IMMEDIATELY:…..WE’VE KNOWN FOR AWHILE NOW THAT THE VOLT WAS A BOONDOGGLE, AND THIS IS REALLY JUST FURTHER CONFIRMATION OF THAT FACT……IF YOU’RE A BUSINESSMAN AND YOU’RE LOSING $50,000 ON EVERY SALE OF A CERTAIN ITEM YOU MANUFACTURE, SHOULDN’T THAT TELL YOU THAT YOU’RE DOING SOMETHING WRONG?….GM IS NOT EXPECTED TO PAY TAXES FOR YEARS AS A RESULT OF THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION WANTING TO ENSURE FUTURE PROFITABILITY FOR A COMPANY THAT WOULD BECOME THE CENTERPIECE OF THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION”.

  GM KNEW THE VOLT WAS NOT READY FOR THE MARKET, ADMITTED IT….BUT, WITH OBAMA HANDING OUT BILLIONS IN TAXPAYER DOLLARS TO FINANCE ANY “PIE IN THE SKY GREEN TECHNOLOGY” IN SIGHT, THEY WERE MORE THAN WILLING TO TAKE THE MONEY, PRODUCE THE TAXPAYER FUNDED CHEVY VOLT, AND JUST “SEE WHAT HAPPENS”. ….

  BARRACK OBAMA IS AN ANTI-CAPITALIST FOOL, WITH NO IDEA OF HOW THE MARKET WORKS, AND PEOPLE LIKE YOU ARE TOO IDEOLOGICAL TO FACE IT, WHILE HE WASTES BILLIONS OF DOLLARS OF OUR MONEY!

  Despite the calls for everyone to pay their fair share and Obama’s vilification of oil companies, it turns out that EXON MOBILE PAID $31 BILLION IN TAXES FOR 2011 WHILE GM ACTUALLY HAD A TAX BENEFIT OF $110 MILLION. THE FACTS, DON’T MATCH OBAMA’S RHETORIC….in other words…obama is a LIAR.

  Honestly, Doug, you’re so full of liberal crap I bet you wake up every morning covered in mushrooms…kind of like a leaking septic tank! lol

  I’ve read through the rest of your claims, and there is nothing there that can’t be EASILY refuted, and proven to be inaccurate and dishonest if taken on their face value. Your statistics about “change in income” are easily challenged, and explained, with even the most minor effort by anyone actually wanting to find the truth.

  And, your “concerns” about America’s standing within the “OECD” or whatever, is simply foolish. Why do all your liberal/socialists want America to imitate the failing socialist economies of other nations? I don’t know, or care, what other countries are included in that group, but I am sure some socialist country like France is one of them…and really….WHO cares about France’s way of doing things, other than socialists like YOU and obama….France just raised their top income tax rate on the “rich” to 75%, which I’m sure would give YOU an orgasm if your “messiah” obama would follow suit. Personally, I don’t want that, so ,what else does France offer?…”no no!…oui oui!…pee pee!”…who cares?…voulez vous phu-kay, France! lol

  Then there’s most probably Mexico…what an “el sheet hole!”…that place is so bad that about half of it’s population has friends or relatives living in the United States, legally or not…due to both Bush and obama failing to do their sworn Constitutional duty, and protect America, which includes our BORDERS….and are now deciding WHO will be president of the USA. While I used to really like the Latino culture, and thought Spanish was a lovely language, and even dated several Mexican senoritas when I lived in Texas, now, I have nothing but contempt for ANY illegal alien, or supporter of amnesty for them…besides, aren’t they ALL “Americans” now, or shortly will be, under the America hating obama amnesty plan to racially, culturally, linguistically, and POLITICALLY, “FUNDAMENTALLY CHANGE AMERICA”, so, “Welcome to America, Jose…speak English!…and that goes for your brother Hose B, too!, amigo!”…lol

  I won’t waste any more time countering your misconceptions and half truths…it changes no one’s mind…they either “get it”, and do some easy research on their own to see how dishonest and anti-American the modern day liberal democrats have become, or they continue to believe the lies, vote democrat, and sell America down the drain…..countering the liberal lies, and fighting the dishonest liberal mass media is a staggering, 24/7 uphill battle…..because secular socialism NEVER SLEEPS!

  You are either a totally naive political idealist, consumed with some fantasy hero worship of this “shuck and jive”, anti-American, illegitimate imposter, or possibly just an outright liberal liar…maybe both.

  I’m shocked that you are even a “biker”, you “rebel”, you!…just think of the added risk to health care costs your “selfish” decision potentially creates…with the possible medical costs of any injury you might receive being forced onto others who think two wheeled transportation just shouldn’t be allowed…”too dangerous!”….kind of like ALL choices, though they MAY be the best for all concerned, and I MIGHT even promote them, they are simply NONE OF THE GOVERNMENT’S BUSINESS…choices such as helmets, seat belt laws, Coca Cola, potato chips, light bulbs, etc, etc, etc…do you see ANY connection there, Doug?…probably not.

  Hey!, speaking of being a “rebel”, I bet Roy would be happy to send you some really “fierce looking” fake tattoos…something like “BEND OVER FOR OBAMA!” ..or…”GIVE ME TAXES OR GIVE ME DEATH!” ….and of course, there’s the ever popular, liberal favorite…a BIG red heart with “OBAMA…mmmm….mmmm….mmmm!” across it…choose one, or all three….hell, I’ll even buy! lol

  If only liberals would stop their constant lies, and could be as silent as YOUR bike’s “quiet” exhaust pipes….”what a wonderful world it would be!”

  If I’ve offended you by exposing you to the truth about your deeply held, but badly misguided ideas about modern day liberal/progressive/socialist ideologies and their false dogmatic statements, I will offer you a combination of my “sincerest apologies” and a FREE one hour session of “inhalation therapy” on my Night Train’s Screamin’ Eagle exhaust pipes (electronically “scrubbed” to eliminate ALL CO2 emissions, so as not to melt the polar ice caps), AND equipped with an ASBESTOS filter so as to prevent any burning of your tender, obama butt kissing lips….my treat! lol

  Also, your dishonest “P.S”,claiming…. “I have nothing against spirituality, but all organized religions are simply systems of power, control, fear, who fight over who has the best imaginary friend”….while referring to God as “dog”, and your arrogant dismissal of billions of others’ personal beliefs is typical of you dishonest, secular, modern day liberals. CLEARLY you have nothing but contempt for religion or religious beliefs….as a Christian, I think that is okay…unlike your, and obama’s ….muslim brothers, who would behead you for such writings, yet obama fully supports THEM. But at LEAST have the integrity…you might want to look that word up, as I realize it is totally foreign to you liberals….to admit your contempt.

  As far as your last admonition in the “PPS”…

  After a lifetime of loud cars, bikes, ORVs, prop planes, jet planes, and just about anything else that burns some form of FOSSIL FUEL, I’m sure the sweet sound of “Milwaukee Music” that emanates from my Night Train’s exhaust won’t do me any damage, unlike the constant, and dishonest lies that you liberals broadcast around the clock.

  It appears to me Doug, that with your constant belief in, and support for, obama, YOU are the one who is truly “…deaf as well as dumb and blind”.

  Liberals…they should all be drowned at birth.

  LOUD PIPES SAVE LIVES!….SOCIALISM STEALS SOULS!

  P.S. Your hero, obama, once again, showed his lack of respect for all things American, by attending the “Christmas in Washington” charity concert, which featured a South Korean performer named “Psy”.

  In 2004, “Psy” sang: “Dear American”….with these lyrics…

  “Kill those f–king Yankees who have been torturing Iraqi captives
  Kill those f–king Yankees who ordered them to torture
  Kill their daughters, mothers, daughters-in-law and fathers
  Kill them all slowly and painfully”

  While Psy did not write this song, he DID sing it, and should NOT be welcomed in this country…ESPECIALLY BY ANY “AMERICAN” PRESIDENT!

  obama knew about these anti-American, hate filled lyrics, performed by this man in 2004, AT LEAST as early as the Friday before the event, and should…and COULD…have either “requested” Psy be eliminated from the show, or, obama COULD have “given his regrets”, and decided NOT to attend.

  Of course, the low class obama chose neither….and attended the show, even shaking Psy’s hand.

  I wonder if obama bowed and apologized to Psy for all the “messy” AMERICAN BLOOD spilled in the dirt of South Korea to keep that country free from communist takeover…..it wouldn’t surprise me one bit.

  Meanwhile, the MURDERS OF THE FOUR AMERICANS in Benghazi…over three months ago….goes unexplained by the Kenyan and Hillary Clinton, Secretary of State, who has just recently….and VERY conveniently…. received a “concussion”, “preventing” her from testifying about the murders….since she doesn’t want any “messy” lies she might get caught up in to hurt HER presidential campaign in 2016.

  Let’s see, hows your devastating, quick witted, liberal “defense” against all criticisms go again….”lame”, wasn’t it?

• oh hell ya stop all the tax cuts on everyone and go back to where it was … all should pay for the use of roads … etc … even for a few years ..pay down the debt … no blame everyone wanted the home land safe ..so spend spend spend … even my small home town of 3,000 people got $$$ when it did not want it …”you have to take it to protect the homeland from the bads ones ” .. so now we are ready for the invasion of blue meanies .. in a town of nothing to harm ..that most people could not even find .. prime target we are .. x all the other small towns = debit …but we all can sleep safe knowing that the one stop sign is cemented in renforced concrete …one sign = $10,000 .. everyone wanted the $ to flow so now its time to pay .. so even the poor benefit from that stop sign so they should pay also..the rich use it equal to the poor …

• ps – vern – i am in the middle class, too, and am also “bracing” for a tax increase. it seems the congress still refuses to let the gwb tax cuts expire on the top 2% of wage earners. but, i am ok w/going over the “fiscal cliff” – i don’t mind paying the same tax rate i paid before the ruinous gwb tax cuts. nothing is free…

• vern, i understand your not wanting me to bother responding. must be something about you being averse to facts and truth. i have already posted a response; maybe posting 2nd time will help it sink in.

  – the majority of entitlement programs are funded by payroll taxes, a separate tax from regular income tax. this includes all s/s and a large portion of medicare. this also happens to be an extremely regressive tax, paid for only by the poor and the middle class, as all income over $110k is not taxed, only income BELOW $110k is taxed.

  – the fortune 500 companies pay an average of just under 20% in income tax.
  – 1/4 of the fortune 500 companies pay an average of 10% in income tax.
  – 1/10th of the fortune 500 companies pay ZERO in income tax.
  – i earn ~$100k and pay almost 40% of my income to taxes; while the likes of mitt earn MILLIONS and pay about 15% of their income to taxes.
  – the military-industrial-complex consumes almost SIXTY PERCENT of the federal discretionary budget.

  – of the 35 developed nations in the oecd, americans’ tax burden is lower than only two or three of those countries, depending on how it’s calculated – almost the lowest on the planet!
  – america’s tax rate as a percentage of gdp is lower now than it has been any time since 1950.
  – america’s economy has always done better when tax rates are higher.
  – it is the repubs that are the most profligate spenders, not the dems, in spite of their rhetoric: the former dem presidents (clinton, carter, lbj, jfk, truman) ALL REDUCED public debt as a share of gdp, while the last four repub presidents (gwb, ghwb, reagan, ford) ALL oversaw an INCREASE in the country’s indebtedness.
  – while the deficit has increased ~$1t/year under barack, the overwhelming majority is a direct result of gwb policies – $1t unfunded prescription drug plan/big pharma give away, two unfunded wars, ruinous tax cuts, and the revenue loss from the resultant economic collapse. and ALL non-partisan economists say the ONLY prudent course during a private sector economic collapse is govt stimulus spending; which make up the rest of the deficit under barack. the deficit the last 4 years would have been huge REGARDLESS of who was president. in fact, most non-partisan economists say what was wrong w/the stimulus spending was it was too SMALL, given the true magnitude of the economic collapse. but the party of “NO”, said, well you know…

  change in income from 1970 to 2008:
  – change in income of the bottom 90% : MINUS 1% (average income – $31k)
  – change in income of the top 5-10% : 37% (average income – $127k)
  – change in income of the top 1-5% : 59% (average income – $211k)
  – change in income of the top 0.5-1% : 90% (average income – $443k)
  – change in income of the top 0.1-0.5% : 141% (average income – $878k)
  – change in income of the top 0.1% : 385% (average income – $5.6m)

  and roy, we are not saying the rich are bad. it’s just that many of us think they should help out at least as much as the working class does, when it comes to funding society’s needed infrastructure…

• question …what does $$$$$ have to do with anything …people with not enough want them that do to pay more tax , as though haveing $ is bad ?? .. and bad rich people .etc.. but the same ones buy zillions of lotto /power ball tickets so they can have all that $$$ then bitch the tax on the ”FREE ” $$$$ is to high ..so if people with $$ are bad and the poor are pure … why buy lotto tickets to get ”bad ”rich ..and who will buy the $30,000 over priced harleys ..oh thats right no gas powered soon… all can have ”green” 3mph electric obama bikes and the world will be one ..happy place …wonder how many lives will be saved then ..who has the louder hummmmmmmmm

• Yeah, make the millionaires pay “a little more” as someone is fond of saying, and everything will work out great. You liberals and your math… I’m in the middle class and I am bracing for a huge increase in my taxes. Don’t bother responding. I am sure you’ll have some math that says we in the middle class will all be in clover.

• actually, vern, for the most recent – the last congress – 36 senate democrats, and 30 senate republicans reported an average net worth in excess of $1 million. The same was true for 110 house republicans and 73 house democrats. so, that equates to 109 democratic millionaires and 140 republican millionaires in congress. what was that you were saying about vast majority of millionaires in the congress being democrats? ;~)

  but, at least it is refreshing to know that *some* millionaires understand the necessity of paying taxes… ;~)

• Not that this has anything to do with loud pipes, but for those of you who think the conservatives are the ones with the money, did you know that the vast majority of millionaires in the Congress are democrats?

• Incredibly well written, Dan. Not that the liberals will read past the first couple of obama references, but it is good to know others out there still have a love for country and constitution. As another erudite individual wrote “I’ll keep my guns and religion. You can keep the change.”

• “Doug….”elegantly” spoken…I just LOVE those liberal “expletives”!..speaking of that particular act, you obama butt boys must be in heaven about now, eh?…got your “fudge packing” hubby all picked out for a spring wedding?”
  – Nice grade school insults. adds a lot to meaningful discourse…

  “You’re right though, this thread IS about loud exhaust pipes on bikes, but, did you honestly think that you could sneak in that political cheap shot about “legitimate rape” and no one would notice?…ain’t gonna happen as long as this old “neanderthal” is alive and kicking…I can smell you lying liberals a mile away…even when you’re down wind! lol
  Although I agree that it was an assinine thing to say…and I will point out that it was immediately reputiated and attacked by all other Republicans….”
  – Exactly – repudiated even by (some) republicans. which is why I thought it was ok to post here…

  “which never happens with the democrats, or the lying liberal mass media when ANY liberal makes some equally ignorant remark…they’re all too busy trying to “spin” or “cover up” for their candidates….you people lost any moral “high ground” to attack anyone else for stupid remarks long, long ago….remember the “blue dress”, and Slick Willie’s buddy, James Carville, and his “trailer trash” remark about Monica Lewinsky?…”I did NOT have sex with that woman, Monica Lewinsky!”…that was about as truthful as “I was born in Hawaii”! lol
  your lies and distortions here are lame.”
  – “Liberal mass media?” outright lie. unless, somehow radio pacifica, mother jones, the daily kos somehow are suddenly mainstream mass media, and i missed it? While I am no fan of Clinton – one of the reasons being his twisting of fact, as you mention – his getting a blow job and not wanting his family to know about it, is a lousy reason for impeachment. and your statement about barack being born in Hawaii shows your utter lameness.

  “As far as my “ignorant blather” is concerned…blather?, maybe, ignorant?, “no way Jose”…oops, is that racist now?…. it’s so hard to keep track with obama charading around as a “president” these last four years…but, coming from an obama butt kissing liberal like you, I’ll take your remark as a “badge of honor”….you liberals are so thin skinned!…must be from knowing that the guys you vote for….especially the foreign ones… are all lying thieves bent on destroying the greatest country in the history of civilization…ya’ think? (and, by the way, I don’t mean Kenya! lol”
  – Again, you show your hate and ignorance – it’s clear you hated barack before he did a single thing. Good on ya. Considering he was faced w/the worst economic crisis the country experienced in 80 years, the day he set foot into office, I think he has done remarkably well, especially since congress, just like you, was happy to do everything they could to see him fail, even throwing America under the bus in order to do so. Have I liked everything barack has done? No – I wish Guantanamo were closed. I wish the gwb tax cuts were sunsetted in 2010. I wish he would tell Israel no more funding until they start dismantling the illegal settlements in the west bank. I wish the patriot act were not re-authorized… i wish telecopms weren’t granted immunity for illegal wiretapping. i wish he prosecuted blatant violations of the torture laws by the previous administration.

  “As far as America ending up a “has been, third world 19th century plutocracy”, your “messiah”, obama, is well on the way toward his goal of making that happen….shutting down off shore oil drilling, shutting down the coal industry, pushing gasoline prices back up to the record setting numbers obama “enjoyed” for almost four years…until the month PRIOR to the election, but, they’re sneaking back up there again…wasting hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars on so called “green technology” companies…can you say “Solyndra”…that didn’t have a prayer of succeeding…and President Bush denied any taxpayer money to, by the way…and trying to force Americans into buying vehicles that they not only don’t want, but that are simply NOT ready for the mass market, i.e. the Chevy Volt…better known as the “obama-mobile”….LOL”
  – Again, your lies and distortions show your ignorance. Barack is not my messiah. No coal or oil industry has been shut down. Yes, there was a temp moratorium after one of the worst ecological disasters took place in the gulf. But in fact, more oil exploration and production has occurred under barack’s administration than any other. Yes – clean coal needs to happen – dirty coal is not a good solution. But, I guess you don’t mind destroying the environment as long as production is up? The fact is unless clean energy and sustainable energy takes place, the planet is toast. And your comment that barack has any control over the price of gas is amazingly stupid. World demand is the number one driver of the cost of gas. (tho the greed of the neocons, opening up the pandora’s box in the middle east, solely for financial gain certainly hasn’t helped.) Another stupid comment: “solyndra”. Ya, it failed. A small percentage of money that went to something that didn’t work out. Better to send billions to the oil companies, that don’t need it? And again, if America doesn’t increase its investment in sustainable energy, it will be left in the dust by other nations – it is already happening. Your comment about the chevy volt – also stupid – its development was well under way, long before barack was in the white house. yes, we are on our way to becoming a third world country. this have everything to do w/the system being gamed for the rich; who are doing phenomenally well, compared to everyone else:
  change in income from 1970 to 2008:
  – change in income of the bottom 90% : MINUS 1% (average income – $31k)
  – change in income of the top 5-10% : 37% (average income – $127k)
  – change in income of the top 1-5% : 59% (average income – $211k)
  – change in income of the top 0.5-1% : 90% (average income – $443k)
  – change in income of the top 0.1-0.5% : 141% (average income – $878k)
  – change in income of the top 0.1% : 385% (average income – $5.6m)
  thank ronnie reagan and his mindless trickle down theories. the middle class is disappearing.

  “Obama, and his Silver Back looking wife, Michelle, want to tell you, me, and everyone else what we can eat for lunch, whether or not we can CHOOSE to buy a can of Coca Cola out of a vending machine, or not,…what light bulbs we MUST buy to light our houses, although that won’t really matter much, once he shoves his job killing, price increasing, “Cap and Trade” law down our collective throats, and our energy prices….as your own shucking and jiving “Kingfish” himself says…. “necessarily skyrockets”!, and we have to decide whether we will pay our mortgage payment this month, fill the gas tank on our car, eat a box of $10 dollar cereal for dinner, or pay our light bill so we don’t have to eat that cereal in the dark…we still get to “choose”…just like our bikes exhaust pipes… but most Americans, and especially our “older, ignorant, white trash men” Founding Fathers didn’t have this type of “choice” in mind…those “selections” come strictly by electing liberal/progressive/socialist.democrats….after all, it’s about total control, and that’s what you people want right?…right down to the sound of our motorcycles.”
  – silverback looking wife?” nice… I am all for no sodas being sold in schools, sorry if you have a problem w/it. I am all for energy-efficient lighting, sorry if you have a problem w/it. Cap-n-trade was actively pushed by repubs before dems also agreed it would be a good idea. Energy prices will be controlled by world demand, what is wrong to try to reduce demand? If you want to live in a healthy society, yes, there need to be policies that deal w/realities unforeseen by the founding fathers.

  “I do have a tip for you though, Doug….while all this “friendly” guy talk is a lot of fun, if you’re gonna come out “blazing” when you enter the “arena of the verbal gunfight”, you need to be packing a lot more “heat” than that dull witted skull full of mush all your liberals seen to be stuck with.
  As your arrogant, narcissistic, “emperor of the world” wanna be, found out in the debates, it’s not so easy when you’re not reading from a teleprompter or reciting your morning talking points…you actually have to know SOMETHING about what you’re talking about.”
  – Your ignorant lame grade school insults lies, distortions and half-truths are typical of haters.

  Here’s some FACTS for you, I hope it doesn’t upset your delusional view too much:

  -america’s healthcare costs – before romneycare, w/20% of its population not even covered – is far higher than any of the 35 developed nations in the oecd, as a percentage of gdp, and almost double the median oecd cost.
  – the cbo has said – recently – that repealing romneycare will cost an ADDITIONAL $100b.

  – the majority of entitlement programs are funded by payroll taxes, a separate tax from regular income tax. this includes all s/s and a large portion of medicare. this also happens to be an extremely regressive tax, paid for only by the poor and the middle class, as all income over $110k is not taxed, only income BELOW $110k is taxed.

  – the fortune 500 companies pay an average of just under 20% in income tax.
  – 1/4 of the fortune 500 companies pay an average of 10% in income tax.
  – 1/10th of the fortune 500 companies pay ZERO in income tax.
  – i earn ~$100k and pay almost 40% of my income to taxes; while the likes of mitt earn MILLIONS and pay about 15% of their income to taxes.
  – the military-industrial-complex consumes almost SIXTY PERCENT of the federal discretionary budget.

  – of the 35 developed nations in the oecd, americans’ tax burden is lower than only two or three of those countries, depending on how it’s calculated – almost the lowest on the planet!
  – america’s tax rate as a percentage of gdp is lower now than it has been any time since 1950.
  – america’s economy has always done better when tax rates are higher.
  – it is the repubs that are the most profligate spenders, not the dems, in spite of their rhetoric: the former dem presidents (clinton, carter, lbj, jfk, truman) ALL REDUCED public debt as a share of gdp, while the last four repub presidents (gwb, ghwb, reagan, ford) ALL oversaw an INCREASE in the country’s indebtedness.
  – while the deficit has increased ~$1t/year under barack, the overwhelming majority is a direct result of gwb policies – $1t unfunded prescription drug plan/big pharmay give-away, two unfunded wars, ruinous tax cuts, and the revenue loss from the resultant economic collapse. and ALL non-partisan economists say the ONLY prudent course during a private sector economic collapse is govt stimulus spending; which make up the rest of the deficit under barack. deficit the last 4 years would have been huge REGARDLESS of who was president. in fact, most non-partisan economists say what was wrong w/the stimulus spending was it was too SMALL, given the true magnitude of the economic collapse. but the party of “NO”, said, well you know…

  so, all you “conservatives” can go on ranting and spewing lies, hate, misinformation and scare tactics, but the facts speak for themselves. it’s the rich and the military industrial complex and the other big corporations who are the prime beneficiaries of “welfare”; what’s left over for those truly in need, and for needed infrastructure to sustain a healthy society are not even pocket change in comparison.

  so, keep ranting and voting against your own interests. meanwhile (fortunately) most folks are waking up and not buying the repub politician’s smoke-n-mirrors show. and this doesn’t even cover their misogynist social views of women…

  ps – i have nothing against spirituality. but all organized religions are simply systems of power, control, fear, who fight over who has the best imaginary friend..

  pps – keep using those loud pipes, you can be deaf as well as dumb and blind… ;~)

• dan well said … BUT loud pipes will let the ”body snachers ” know where you are .. they own/bought/took over the 51% ..so blaze away at the quiet muffler bikes … drive a stake or cut off the heads i think that will work ??? .not sure …

• Naww…it only works with pipes…particularly Harley Davidson pipes…any red blooded American male knows that. lol

• Loud pipes save lives? Well let’s all just drive around with our horns blaring too, can’t be too careful these days.

• Ahhhh…I DO love the smell of napalm in the morning! LOL

  Doug….”elegantly” spoken…I just LOVE those liberal “expletives”!..speaking of that particular act, you obama butt boys must be in heaven about now, eh?…got your “fudge packing” hubby all picked out for a spring wedding?

  You’re right though, this thread IS about loud exhaust pipes on bikes, but, did you honestly think that you could sneak in that political cheap shot about “legitimate rape” and no one would notice?…ain’t gonna happen as long as this old “neanderthal” is alive and kicking…I can smell you lying liberals a mile away…even when you’re down wind! lol

  Although I agree that it was an assinine thing to say…and I will point out that it was immediately reputiated and attacked by all other Republicans….which never happens with the democrats, or the lying liberal mass media when ANY liberal makes some equally ignorant remark…they’re all too busy trying to “spin” or “cover up” for their candidates….you people lost any moral “high ground” to attack anyone else for stupid remarks long, long ago….remember the “blue dress”, and Slick Willie’s buddy, James Carville, and his “trailer trash” remark about Monica Lewinsky?…”I did NOT have sex with that woman, Monica Lewinsky!”…that was about as truthful as “I was born in Hawaii”! lol

  As far as my “ignorant blather” is concerned…blather?, maybe, ignorant?, “no way Jose”…oops, is that racist now?…. it’s so hard to keep track with obama charading around as a “president” these last four years…but, coming from an obama butt kissing liberal like you, I’ll take your remark as a “badge of honor”….you liberals are so thin skinned!…must be from knowing that the guys you vote for….especially the foreign ones… are all lying thieves bent on destroying the greatest country in the history of civilization…ya’ think? (and, by the way, I don’t mean Kenya! lol )

  As far as America ending up a “has been, third world 19th century plutocracy”, your “messiah”, obama, is well on the way toward his goal of making that happen….shutting down off shore oil drilling, shutting down the coal industry, pushing gasoline prices back up to the record setting numbers obama “enjoyed” for almost four years…until the month PRIOR to the election, but, they’re sneaking back up there again…wasting hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars on so called “green technology” companies…can you say “Solyndra”…that didn’t have a prayer of succeeding…and President Bush denied any taxpayer money to, by the way…and trying to force Americans into buying vehicles that they not only don’t want, but that are simply NOT ready for the mass market, i.e. the Chevy Volt…better known as the “obama-mobile”….LOL

  Obama, and his Silver Back looking wife, Michelle, want to tell you, me, and everyone else what we can eat for lunch, whether or not we can CHOOSE to buy a can of Coca Cola out of a vending machine, or not,…what light bulbs we MUST buy to light our houses, although that won’t really matter much, once he shoves his job killing, price increasing, “Cap and Trade” law down our collective throats, and our energy prices….as your own shucking and jiving “Kingfish” himself says…. “necessarily skyrockets”!, and we have to decide whether we will pay our mortgage payment this month, fill the gas tank on our car, eat a box of $10 dollar cereal for dinner, or pay our light bill so we don’t have to eat that cereal in the dark…we still get to “choose”…just like our bikes exhaust pipes… but most Americans, and especially our “older, ignorant, white trash men” Founding Fathers didn’t have this type of “choice” in mind…those “selections” come strictly by electing liberal/progressive/socialist.democrats….after all, it’s about total control, and that’s what you people want right?…right down to the sound of our motorcycles.

  I do have a tip for you though, Doug….while all this “friendly” guy talk is a lot of fun, if you’re gonna come out “blazing” when you enter the “arena of the verbal gunfight”, you need to be packing a lot more “heat” than that dull witted skull full of mush all your liberals seen to be stuck with.

  As your arrogant, narcissistic, “emperor of the world” wanna be, found out in the debates, it’s not so easy when you’re not reading from a teleprompter or reciting your morning talking points…you actually have to know SOMETHING about what you’re talking about.

  Now, Doug, let me make one thing perfectly clear….just because I gave you a tip, it doesn’t mean we’re gonna be swapping spit, or taking long, hot showers together…although I understand all you obama peg boys do that on a routine basis….it just ain’t gonna happen!…comprendo?..(as obama’s newest citizens might say) lol

  Any way, have a nice, QUIET day….and a Merry Christmas…unless that phrase riles you up, as I did notice in your last post you thanked “dog”, instead of GOD, which I assume is just part of all you liberal’s belief in the THEORY of evolution, and the belief that if you throw all the parts of a ’57 Chevy out on the lawn, and leave then there long enough, they will “evolve” into a nice, shiny, new car…isn’t that how it goes? lol

  Take care, and vaya con Dios.

  P.S. Daisy is feeling much better tonight, says “Hi”, and reminds us all during this CHRISTMAS season……LOUD PIPES SAVE LIVES!!!!! lol

  P.P.S….Chris, I think I’ll get one of those nice yellow flags for my Night Train…that way, when the liberals look over and see me…because they HEARD me first…they’ll get a better “feel” for who’s making that “Milwaukee Music”! lol

• Well, it’s the 21st century, not the 19th.
  If you agree with Webster’s and Oxford, which both define plutocracy as “government by the wealthy”, then Roy is right and the US is definitely there.

  But, isn’t this where everyone wants it to be – especially those who resent government, taxes and restrictions to their freedom to acquire and retain wealth?

  It’s the American Dream, isn’t it?

• i think we are there now don’t you ..

• chris, this thread is about loud pipes on motorcycles. otherwise i would show you why your ranting is so ignorant – the product of folks who appeal to your basest instincts and fears, all the while stealing you blind. thank dog that the older ignorant unaware white trash men are going the way of the dodo bird. otherwise, america would end up a has been 3rd world 19th century plutocracy…