THE DEBATE GOES ON. I’ve never struggled so much to write a motorcycle article as I have with this one. A reader challenged me to enter the discussion about loud pipes earlier this year. At the time, I thought it an easy endeavor because I had my own years of experience and opinion on the matter.
However, I made a mistake: I decided to research the matter. And in the process, my opinion has been somewhat modified.
The Search for Evidence: “Loud Pipes Save Lives”
As you, too, might be inclined to do when seeking more info on a subject, I did an Internet search for “Loud Pipes Save Lives” and read through numerous articles at the top of the search results and much lower in the results.
What I came away with was less certainty on the subject than when I started. And more so than any time before, I recognized that truth can be illusive.
Now I don’t know if my personal experience is typical, or atypical, but I did ride for years with high-performance (and loud), exhaust pipes – when I was much younger. To this day, I don’t know how my ears survived. (Well, the fact is, now that I’m considerably more mature, the question of how well they survived is just as murky as my research on the matter of whether loud pipes save lives, or not.)
Although it appears my hearing is not as good as it used to be, how much of that is due to loud pipes or lots and lots of very loud concerts and very loud music blasting through headphones is difficult to discern. I’m sure it’s safe to say that neither supported long-term optimal hearing. (I only started wearing ear plugs while riding several years ago).
Loud Pipes Are Impractical For Long-Distance Touring
My first coast-to-coast motorcycle trip was on a motorbike with a high-performance, non-stock exhaust system that did not endear the neighbors to my notion of a spirited form of transportation. Although I’ve ridden coast-to-coast across North America a number of times since, I recall that first trip as a highlight of my life. And although I could discourse about the virtues of that summer adventure, in the early 80’s, for hours on end, one thing that I realized without any advice, feedback or suggestions from anyone else, was that loud pipes made for uncomfortable long-distance riding (and also that I would be switching from chain-drive to shaft-drive motorbikes for touring).
Personally, I don’t like loud pipes. As much as I love each and every kind of motorcycle, the only ones that diminish my enthusiasm for the brotherhood are those that disrupt the neighborhood harmony by announcing their every breath coming and going.
So, here I am, a long-distance, mature rider, with hundreds of thousands of miles of motorbike experience, who “used” to ride with loud pipes, and who has not liked them for years, and who is philosophically opposed to them due to their inherent and ongoing damage to the motorsport in the way they impinge on the lives of those non-riders whom are adversely effected by the noise pollution of their very existence. Hence, wouldn’t you think I’d be a vociferous opponent of the same?
Which brings me to the point of the first paragraph. I was already aware of the lack of real evidence that supports the concept that “loud pipes save lives.”
But lo and behold, my research did find anecdotal reports that extol the virtues of loud pipes.
The Truth, or Not?
So, what is the truth?
Are those riders who state that loud pipes “have” saved their lives just plain wrong?
What my research did “not” do is change my perspective on whether I, personally, will integrate loud pipes back into my riding: I won’t. In fact, in the future, I will likely include an electric motorcycle (which are practically silent), within a stable of riding choices.
However, what has resulted from my research regarding loud pipes is a softening of my perspective. Even though scientifically unproven, if riders’ lives have been saved because of loud pipes, or if riders believe they are safer with loud pipes, those are some compelling factors – at least for those individuals.
Even so, such does not address the rights of others to “not” be subjected to the noise of loud motorcycle exhaust systems.
In conclusion, although I am not an advocate for loud pipes, and even though I disagree with the use of the most obnoxious ones, and even though there is no hard evidence in support of their use as a safety catalyst, and even though the loudest pipes do damage to the overall public perception of motorcycling, I respect that there have been “some” quantity of riders (however large or small), who are still riding, purportedly as a result of loud pipes. Which has caused me to re-evaluate their application.
Better yet, what do YOU consider is the truth? Do loud motorcycle pipes save lives?
753 Comments
roy · December 1, 2012 at 6:07 pm
hold on folks leave me out of this … just can’t leave the kids alone for a min. can you ..it seems … hey your all welcome to come for the beer its cold , march bike week is still a-way down the road to plan it ..loud or not the doors still open .that said keep me out if this i need time to rebuild the two stroke …and the out door BBQ is next week in orlando ,and ace cafe says they are coming to orlando , and …and .. the jap vintage x-mas ride is on the 16th in brooksville ….no time for the pipers….
Lon · December 1, 2012 at 2:28 pm
Honorable of you to try Chris.
As long as you aren’t counting on making a real difference with him, I won’t fear for your sanity.
Maybe if we all chipped in and sent Doug down to Daytona to drink with Roy, they could rub off (on) each other.
Chris Chez · December 1, 2012 at 1:37 pm
To Doug…
It would appear that the truth really does hurt. How much longer can we give away our paychecks and our freedoms before we are seen as the sitting duck we’ve become?
It’s all about perspective with loud pipes. The longest you usually hear them is counted in seconds, so what’s the harm if the intention is truly safety?
p.s. Don’t tread on me.
Sincerely,
A real Citizen and Patriot of America
doug s. · December 1, 2012 at 10:11 am
dan, i have only one comment to respond to your ignorant neanderthal blather. [expletive deleted]
Dan · December 1, 2012 at 4:36 am
My goodness!…glad to see this “friendly” discussion is still alive and well.
Enjoy it while you can, as our newly re-elected “messiah”, and self proclaimed “citizen of the world” (that’s code for, “Yep, I really WAS born in Kenya! LOL”), is, presently behind the scenes, investigating how he, and his freedom grabbing regime, can take control of the internet…and decide which opinions he will allow to be expressed..Google it…
Doug, first I would like to say that you are right…MY “mileage” certainly DOES vary from yours, concerning the use of “loud pipes” and the added safety factor they occasionally, but most assuredly, bring to the “equation” of trying to enjoy a wonderful, two wheeled experience, and yet stay alive while all those almost silent, clearly “non assholes”, in automobiles and trucks, very quietly, roll down the highway, lapsing into their “cell phone talking, texting, message reading hypnosis”….often weaving from lane to lane as they try frantically to spell out yet another word in their “extremely important, must send” message to someone that, very probably, they just saw 10-15 minutes ago, or WILL see, 10-15 minutes hence.
As far as your problem with cagers trying to cut you off or run you off of the road, it is most likely some liberal thinking that, because you CHOOSE to ride a “dangerous” motorcycle, you are most likely a conservative, and we all know what the fanatical liberals think of anyone who dares choose something different that the standard “party line” of liberal thinking is, don’t we?…. just ask FORMER democrat, now “independent”, Joe Lieberman…besides, if it WERE a conservative they WOULD have hit you….we hit what we aim at. lol
Also, “my years of riding experience”…even MORE than yours, by the way, not that it matters…have proven to me…over and over, again…that this argument is simply another example of one group disliking something, then deciding that those who disagree are “assholes”, a “threat” to a “civil” society, and therefore MUST be controlled, and their “misbehavior” totally eliminated.
That line of “thinking”….dare I say their agenda….almost always comes from ONE politically motivated “party”, and it’s minions…care to guess which one?…yep, the ones with the “obama phones”, green cards with the still wet ink, and all those “stay out of my womb”, air headed young women that actually believes there is some kind of “war on women”, due to the solar system revolving around their personal “lady parts”. (Yep, all those phrases in quotation marks WERE used…over and over again…in the last dishonest, but winning, political campaign…mmm…mmm…mmm.)
I think we would be a much more “civil” society if those types of “thinkers” would be “less loud” than my Night Train’s exhaust pipes, and would simply enjoy their personal freedoms more that this once great…but rapidly degenerating…America, provides them, and quit constantly trying to restrict the choices of other Americans as we simply try to practice our own Constitutional rights, in our own “pursuit of happiness”.
While there have been many great thinkers on both sides of this “freedom” issue, and make no mistake, it IS a freedom issue….George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Samuel Adams, and others, on one side…Mao Tse-tung, Joseph Stalin, Adolph Hitler…and obama…on the other side, in MY opinion, our own, much vilified, “old, white, European males” did a pretty damn good job of creating a society where they placed a very high value on the individual life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness of all of us…NOT just those on the “winning” side of any current election….and tried their best to prevent any one individual from trying to take total control, become a self anointed “king”, decide “what is best”, and wrest control of OUR government from “we the people”….it has kept us a “nation of laws”, instead of a “nation of men”….but that is clearly changing now.
Many people…51 percent to be exact… can’t see this dilemma of more and more laws, more and more government control, and more and more erosion of personal freedom through the loss of personal choice, that the modern liberal/progressive regime is advancing….I find that very sad.
So, all you “quiet lovers”….hop onto your “electric” scooters, tighten up that full body armor riding suit, the one with the full coverage helmet with the tiny windmill propeller on top to power one flash of your turn signal for every five miles ridden…ah, clean, sustainable energy!…and silently glide down the highway…at least until all the “old, white, male dinosaurs”, like me are gone, and this fight is lost….and the “liberals” start looking around for yet something else to restrict, decide your little solar panel covered electric “fun machine” is “dangerous” and will raise the costs to our new “sacred document”, obama care (which replaced the old fashion Constitution), have a congressional committee come up with “recommendations”, and your shiny little, ever so efficient, and totally silent “motorcycle” is outlawed and thrown onto the scrap heap of history.
I’ve lived my life doing things that “someone”, almost always a liberal, said would “kill me”…I smoked, I drank, I kissed “strange” women on the first date…REPEATEDLY… lol…I rode motorcycles, I flew jet planes, I jumped out of airplanes, I helped bring down Noriega, and I participated in Desert Storm….and I have NEVER felt more insecure in my life than I do with this current, insidious trend of racially motivated voting, the kowtowing to the “demands” of illegal alien criminals, the ridiculous “demand” to “stay out of my womb” of the air headed young women who could care less about what is happening to America as long as they retain the “right” to hack up certain pieces of “their body”, while insisting that I pay for it…all in the name of “freedom, “personal choice”, and “inclusiveness”….while denying all who would choose a slightly different form of freedom of sound for their “scooter’, more “personal choice” in how we individualize our “rides”, and want the constant whining and finger pointing of all those “liberal”, silence loving “bikers”, to stop the demonizing, name calling, and “casting out” of those of us who simply choose a different path through life.
For those that say “stop bringing politics” into this issue, I would say…”Everything is political now…everything.”….as Doug s.’s political remark points out….and I simply can not let those types of statements go unchallenged…tired or not….it’s like letting the murders of the Americans in Benghazi be covered up by more and more obama lies due the dishonest mass media not wanting to report anything that might hurt their political “wet dream”.
Loud, dirty, FUN motorcycles were here long before the silent, super efficient “modern wonders” from across the ocean….just like the American buffalo, they may be a lot smaller “herd” than they were…but, I damn sure like having them around.
Is this a “rant”?…yeah, it is….blame it on my Rottweiler, Daisy…she had some surgery yesterday, and she’s having some pain issues and can’t seem to sleep….she woke me up at 2am and she seems more at ease if I’m awake with her….but tired or not, these words contain more truth than all the non stop, dishonest speeches of the “messiah” in the last five years! lol
doug s. · November 30, 2012 at 11:49 pm
chris, i am re-posting my sept post yust for you:
ya sure loud pipes save lives. just like “legitimate rape†makes a woman not get pregnant.
since about 80% of motorcycle accidents are a result of other vehicle’s approaching from the front, and the noise from loud pipes is primarily directed towards the rear, loud pipes won’t help very much. but, what excessively loud pipes *do* have an effect on, is the irritation of the general public. this may actually increase the danger to motorcyclists – while, in almost 40 years of riding, i have had my share of incidents w/inattentive cagers, the most dangerous incidents i have had involve cagers deliberately trying to inflict bodily harm on me, by trying to purposely cut me off, run me off the road, etc…
ymmv,
doug s.
doug s. · November 30, 2012 at 11:48 pm
lon, the epa regulates noise as well as emissions…
doug s.
Lon · November 30, 2012 at 9:05 pm
The ERA?
I didn’t realize the loud pipes allowed either more or less emissions than do quiet pipes.
jimbo · November 30, 2012 at 8:56 pm
The EPA will soon put an end to this ridiculous discussion regarding noise pollution.
Chris · November 30, 2012 at 7:59 pm
Loud pipes are NOT sold to ‘assholes’ (Matt). I have loud pipes, put on by a previous owner. I simply inherited them when I bought the bike. I have heard louder pipes, however. I know many loud pipes advocates who claim, like me, that they DO make a difference. It stands to reason, HEARING being one of your senses. Ambulances and police cars don’t have sirens for nothin’!!!
Of course, loud pipes are not as piercing as sirens, but they can alert someone who otherwise doesn’t see you. I have, at times, heard motorcycles before I even saw them, BECAUSE they had loud pipes. I have also avoided backing out with my car or trusted my sight to change lanes because I HEARD a bike before I saw it. In one case it was in my blind spot, but I SURE heard it!
How can anyone dispute this obvious advantage of loud pipes??? Sorry if it annoys Harley bashers like Matt, but.my life is more important than a little annoyance for them. Get over it.
Dadd · October 26, 2012 at 11:40 am
I am not for straight pipe BUT , seeing people still texting and on there cell phone being distracted the noise of a straight pipe might save the bikers life.
It is 2 bad that only big ego people use straight pipe to annoy people enjoying the outdoors.
I think only the asshole abusing there loud pipes should be fine like the people racing there vehicle.
Because of a few assholes all of us must pay like when we were in school it took 1 student talking and all of us got penalize.
Bob G. · October 9, 2012 at 7:24 am
The original mufflers on my touring bike included a crossover pipe to balance the pressure and noise and were very quiet. Replacing them after a number of years, similar mufflers were simply too costly, so I purchased a pair of aftermarket mufflers, assuming they might be a bit louder, but not obnoxious. BIG MISTAKE! Because of the racket from the new mufflers, my wife would no longer ride with me.
After a couple of years, I opted for a pair of longer and fatter mufflers in the hope that their sound might be somewhat more acceptable, but found that they are nearly as loud as the first replacement mufflers. though, with very conservative throttle application, I can keep the noise level down to an acceptable level.
With so many aftermarket muffler designs available, I don’t understand why it’s so difficult to find mufflers with a sound level similar to OEM mufflers at a reasonable price.
Max Silverhammer · October 5, 2012 at 9:06 pm
Interesting…I’ve not read all 300+ responses, but have thought of something lately. For a long time, I haven’t held to the idea of loud pipes save lives but….I sometimes wish I had louder pipes when I pull up to someone who is talking on their phones or obviously texting. I think some judicious revving might maybe make those folks hang the f&#$ up! or at least look around and see a motorcycle next to them.
roy · October 5, 2012 at 3:42 pm
i try to hit loud h.d. and run em off the road ,but my old 70 chrysler newport 440 will not go that slow… any ideas anyone … maybe a 56 caddy with the bullet steel chrome bumper..
Charlie · October 4, 2012 at 9:19 pm
Loud pipes do save lives. Loud stereo’s don’t. Cell phones don’t.
You could also get hit by a bus tomorrow.
Or have a heart attack right now.
Just because some don’t have a bike and understand anything outside the 9-5 grind of their own life and whatever makes them really care. Just about everyone posting on this article has heard loud pipes.
Now how many people reading or posting this have hit a motorcycle with loud pipes. Nobody said loud pipes make you smile or make you sleepy.
C’mon people. Really?
Matt · October 2, 2012 at 3:57 pm
Sadly the real issue has not been addressed. Loud pipes are sold to assholes who care more about their ego than their manners. The loud pipes save lives argument is just used by Harley riders to TRY and justify their annoying behavior. And if it really does help (another matter altogether), it HURTS a lot more.
doug s. · September 29, 2012 at 5:40 pm
ya sure loud pipes save lives. just like “legitimate rape” makes a woman not get pregnant.
since about 80% of motorcycle accidents are a result of other vehicle’s approaching from the front, and the noise from loud pipes is primarily directed towards the rear, loud pipes won’t help very much. but, what excessively loud pipes *do* have an effect on, is the irritation of the general public. this may actually increase the danger to motorcyclists – while, in almost 40 years of riding, i have had my share of incidents w/inattentive cagers, the most dangerous incidents i have had involve cagers deliberately trying to inflict bodily harm on me, by trying to purposely cut me off, run me off the road, etc…
ymmv,
doug s.
james aquilina · September 20, 2012 at 11:24 pm
Hi,
Un uprated, louder exhaust system definitly. Helps improve saftey as many car driveers do not see you and as happened to me yesterday can run you off the road.
Loud exhaust systems make you more visable because drivers can hear you.
I’ve been riding for 20 years, always had. A race systemninstalled, my last bike did not and in the 2000km i’ve done with it. Cars have not seen me and hit me twice and this does not include the lucky escapes.
Luckily I only got light cosmetic damage. And a sore butt both time s, probably due to experiamce and a load of luck.
For as long as I live i’m never going to ride with oemnexhausts again. It’s just too dangeeous.
roy · September 14, 2012 at 1:55 pm
p.s. lon sorry i will be off line as its about 4 weeks for oct fest daytona … and i have to get ready for the old bike races at the track …and that will take time to prep for tech inspection ….. oh by the way what are you doing this oct …HA ….
roy · September 14, 2012 at 1:50 pm
WELL… lon does that mean no to the cold beer ….oh well DAN more for us , if you drink that is …seems lon is a party pooper i sort of thought that ,no sense of humor to tight, anyway offer is what it is … cold beer and a guide , sit in traffic or do the back roads/streets … speedway races or bar’s ..main street [ i know where to park easy ]or dest. daytona.up in ormond bch….cold slaw girls or flat track .. your call or just stand on the cr. and watch the world ride/ roar by…motorcycle show.at the rats hole on the beach or beach street vendors ..historic bike swap meet or track side demos …
Lon · September 14, 2012 at 10:21 am
Dan, it is apparent, from the perspective of boy-Roy’s parents’ windowless basement, your mongrelization commentary was not considered poetic license, or mere hyperbole, but crap. Crap or such magnitude and odiferousness that Roy-boy lost whatever shred of perspective it would be possible to have while seated at a basement computer anonymously posting on blogs for the orgasms it yields whenever he “JUST YANKs” someone’s chain (you can tell he is having an orgasm when the text switches to upper case).
Is it the orgasms or the lost (or never found) perspective which makes him misread, misunderstand and misquote?
Matters not.
Anyway, my reference was to what your-boy-Roy saw (and maybe subconsciously feared would soon come pouring down the basement staircase to drown him), not to what I easily understood you to mean.
Christine · September 13, 2012 at 7:37 am
Sorry for the double response…I didn’t realize my first response had ‘taken’ …thought I had deleted it by mistake. I hate that when that happens!!! Anyhow, you get the idea of what I’m trying to say.
Christine · September 13, 2012 at 7:35 am
I have to agree with Dan on this one. As I mentioned previously, I HEAR an ambulance before I see it. Similarly, When I’m driving I often hear a loud bike, usually a Harley, before I SEE it. With my loud pipes (thanks to a previous owner), I expect (but don’t depend on entirely) motorists to hear me too!
How would the Hurt report know of those accidents that were averted because the motorist heard the sound of a motorcycle in his/her vicinity and so started paying more attention to his/her driving? Maybe he didn’t change lanes until he could see the biker…or whatever.
This is a situation that can’t be measured or reported by the Hurt report because the accident NEVER occurred, thanks to those loud pipes! Just makes sense.
And for those who claim a loud bike damages their hearing…I think that’s nonsense. Those are prob. the same people that attend rock concerts and allow their hearing to be blown out by the ridiculously loud speakers and think nothing of it.
Christine · September 13, 2012 at 7:25 am
I have to agree with Dan on loud pipes. As I said previously, I usually hear an ambulance before I see it. Similarly, I usually hear a loud motorcycle before I see it. It’s one think that contribures to conspicuity. I mean, it just makes sense.
To not include the sound as a deterrent to potential accidents doesn’t make sense to me. How would the Hurt report know of those accidents that were avoided because a motorist heard a loud bike in its vicinity and thus avoided changing lanes at that time or at least LOOKED to see where the bike was. NO report would have been made due to an accident that NEVER happened!
If a person is driving and distracted by something (either his thoughts, or that sexy girl walking down the sidewalk) he is (unless his radio is cranked up REALLY high) going to hear me for sure, if he doesn’t see me first.
Someone put loud pipes on my Harley before I bought it. and for that I am thankful. It’s just one more thing that contricutes to ‘conspicuity’ so I will never ever buy a quiet bike. I need all the help I can get! And if that means someone being offended that he/she has to momentarily hear my loud pipes, too bad. My safety comes first. And don’t tell me it damages your hearing. That’s a lot of baloney. These same people who claim THAT are prob. the the ones that go to rock concerts and allow their ears to be blown out by ridiculously loud speakers and never say a thing.
So, I say, bring on the loud pipes! Add SOUND
roy · September 10, 2012 at 5:58 am
PS .. BLACK tee shirts with dayglow birds/sculls or some words of wisdom and dates are everywhere …so travel light because thats the color and thry are cheap [ get last years like 3 for $10 ] … 2,000 assorted pins-patches and all the other must have to look like all the other riders are every where…
roy · September 10, 2012 at 5:50 am
SORRY ..dan no sister … but yes offer still goes …and you seem to have the what to wear/look like down to a tee….ya i know you think i am jokeing but after doing daytona bike week for 32 years ..that is the look for the last 15-20 …and you need to tow your h.d. with a B.M.W. …. because very few beyond a few states ride down like in the 60’s … and the G.A. pulls over on I-95 all motorcycles for a” safety check”and gives out muffler tickets and high ape hangers, and anything else they can to make $$$..and its funded by the feds..as a safe stop check…and s. carolina will try the helmet ticket…. fake tats you can get here at the road side vendors along with your do- rag/head rag what ever its called where you are, so you do not sun burn your new shaved head.. or if you wear a helmet the hair pony tail can be bought here also, grow a long beard if you have time .. open pipes can be installed by the main st /track side/h.d ormond bch/j.p. cycle.show vendors right on the spot.. or if you want another type of stock pipes the piles are out back of the vendors and good deals are everywhere as they are just junked scrap..any of the 300 bars you will find the old meth head hoes ,that for a few $$ you can rent to ride around on the back and they can flash their sagging h.d. tat tits..[ hey every one needs to work ] .. so sure come on down when you can and we [ and lon ] .. i can show you around and get you to the main roads where everyone sits at lights and cooks the rear cyl .and revs the motors ….or show you the side roads to beat the traffic. your calls …rock on bro. beers cold
Dan · September 8, 2012 at 6:15 am
Roy, if your offer is sincere, I will certainly consider it, as I would actually like to “experience” Bike Week, at least once in my life.
However, in preparation for our meeting, I would have to shave my head, as all of us Harley riders are not bald, as you seem to think, and I would have to get some of those fake tattoos you’ve spoken of, as I have no real ones, nor have I ever wanted any.
And lastly, just to be a nice guy, and complete the fantasy image you have of “us” all, I would have to borrow or “rent” a fat “old lady” with sagging breasts to ride behind me….do you have an “ex”, a sister, or possibly even a favorite aunt that might be available…missing teeth would earn a bonus. lol
I’m joking, Roy….no harm intended….but….you deserved it.
roy · September 7, 2012 at 3:36 pm
hey i mean it ….beers cold if you ever get this way ,daytona fl … think of the debate after downing a few …
Dan · September 7, 2012 at 6:47 am
LOL….anything’s possible, Roy.
Did you ever see the movie “Twins”?…..I’ll be Arnold….you’re the other guy.
roy · September 7, 2012 at 6:40 am
OH MY GOD DAN we posted at the same time —-we are connected -[and not just allstate insurance]… can we be brother’s separate at birth …some cosmic plan is in the making ,, aliens [ from space- not south of the river ] … wow we need to do D.N A check …have you every been abducted .? …i knew i liked you from the first post ,there was some thing there ..and now with my baffles removed and i have seen the light .LOUD PIPES DOOO SAVE LIVES..AMEN.. we are biker BROS .. hello BROTHER …the beer will always be cold for you if you make daytona in oct, or march….and you BROTHER LON well you know i owe you a six pack .. gee think of the 3 of us bros hanging out , reving our pipes ,saving the world , HOT DAM …THINK HOW WONDERFULL IT WILL BE ….
Dan · September 7, 2012 at 6:24 am
“Just when I thought I was out…..they pullll me back in!”…..lol
My goodness….even when I try to be friendly, and a “wee bit” humorous, my words still come under attack….such is the life of a stalwart conservative, who says what he means, and means what he says.
Doug….you are very correct about the Hurt Report, with minor exceptions ( actually, they studied 900 accidents, and 3600 “accident reports”…..similar, but not quite the same thing, as the “reports” are filed by the investigating officers, and, usually, there is no “on scene” gathering of data, as in the actual accident investigations….a minor point, not meant to criticize.)
However, you have focused on ONE factor, i.e. VISIBILITY, as the ONE greatest “preventative measure” against motorcycle accidents, which while true, can be broken down a bit to show some reasoning as to why those that continue to place all their faith in it….to the exclusion of other important factors, such as “loud pipes”….are deceiving themselves into believing that they have done all that they can.
For example, the Hurt Report states, ” Conspicuity of the motorcycle is a critical factor in the multiple vehicle accidents, and accident involvement is significantly reduced by the use of motorcycle headlamps (on in daylight) and the wearing of high visibility yellow, orange or bright red jackets.”……I am in total agreement with this statement.
However, even BEFORE listing this as an example of how a rider can make himself “safer”, they point out THIS important factor, which is most often overlooked by the “high visibility gear” proponents, who downplay the additional safety factor of SOUND…..
The report states, “The view of the motorcycle, OR THE OTHER VEHICLE INVOLVED in the accident, is LIMITED by glare or OBSTRUCTED by other vehicles in ALMOST HALF of the multiple vehicle accidents.”
Now, my theory is this….while “high visibility gear” is certainly a good idea, and I”m sure, does in fact help make a rider safer, my argument with the other “loud pipe” deniers is that the dependence on high visibility gear for their safety….to the exclusion of a POSSIBLE additional PASSIVE safety factor, such as “loud pipes”….is foolhardy, somewhat snobbish, and a bit condescending of those of use that think otherwise.
As those of us who enjoy the sound of louder-than-stock pipes see, on just about every ride we take, the sound DOES make a difference in other drivers awareness of our proximity.
So, to the Hurt Report factor of visibility being cut almost in half by glare, or other vehicles, I might ask of them….had I been there to assist….”Wouldn’t you agree to the POSSIBILITY that louder than stock exhaust pipes MIGHT help other vehicle drivers become more aware of a motorcyclist’s presence in those limited visibility cases?”…..I would wager that they WOULD agree with that logic, but, I was not there to bring it up, so MAYBE that is the reason “sound” was not even mentioned as being any kind of factor in the investigations…..AND…..how about THIS possibility…..maybe the fact that a biker had louder than stock exhaust pipes actually PREVENTED an accident…so,, no accident…no report….no investigation…… due to the other vehicle knowing, though not being able to see them, that a motorcycle was nearby?….possible?…..yes…no…MAYBE? lol
As to Roy….again, you have misread my post….I wrote that I am of Scottish DESCENT… I never said I was a SCOT, and explained what is required to claim that title. I have never lived in Scotland, and never said, or even implied that I did.
As far as my use of the term “mongrelization”…..I was referring to the term “American” being given to every human that sets foot on our soil, and is quickly given a piece of paper proclaiming them as such, it had nothing to do with “miscegenation”, which is the actual mixing or races through interbreeding….but most modern day “liberals” wouldn’t know that. While it is true, by our laws, that the “new arrivals” of which I am speaking, have American citizenship, they, in reality, are no more “American” than obama’s father, though he claimed to have gone to school in Hawaii….he was a Kenyan, and a citizen of the United Kingdom, and he never applied for, nor was awarded American citizenship papers ( which, by the way, legally prevents obama from running for, or serving as President )…..can you see the difference to the Scottish belief of what a Scot really is?….maybe not.
However, I KNEW that my use of such an “incendiary” word as “mongrelization” would bring at least one of the true, modern day liberal/progressive/democrats out of their chairs, and immediately to their spittle covered keyboards…..did it not?….lol…..they are an easy species to goad.
And lastly….Lon…..”CRAP”?…..surely you were not referring to my writing….lol
roy · September 7, 2012 at 6:24 am
LON ..yes i realized my mistake after it was to late … for give me … but when dan said you were getting close and coming up to his fine level ,i must of got you mixed up with him ..then i realized you were not quite up there yet [ his words ] …but to late ..[ but i am sure you will make it if you try hard .]. and the removing the baffles in my mufflers has started me in my new quest of going around saving lives ..i have become the ”loud man super hero ” on two wheels … riding around reving my motor ,waking the dazed and confused from their stupor.at lights..makeing the roads safer for all…chaseing little tikes and rodents from the streets…yes i have seen the light , let my pipes blow free and chase away the demons of dispair ..hark the angels sing ….reborn i say LOUD PIPES DO SAVE LIVES…give me a amen .. LON ….praise the pipers ,i hear the light …group hug -ROY-LON-DAN… you have saved me ..thank you … my mission in life will be to save lives with very loud pipes …. spread the word ..as i rev the bike at a light i will tell people a am saving them , praise the pipe god…..and all will be good in wonderland once more ..
Lon · September 6, 2012 at 6:47 pm
Roy ( may we refer to you as a Reginald Barclay?), you really are a little twerp – of the lowest order.
You quote Dan but attribute the crap to me? You need to work on your lack of reading comprehension skill. If Scottish blood is separate from blood from other ancestral countries, then my small percentage of it makes me a mongrel. I neither seem to be nor am I, the least bit upset by what I think you mean by mongrelization. The actual outcome is more likely to be hybrid-vigor and I’m quite in favor of it. Maybe Dan isn’t – take it up with him.
“You pipers” … ? Really Roy? I am not a piper. If you could read, you would see that I wrote that I tried to avoid loud pipers. Certainly didn’t claim to be one.
Doug · September 6, 2012 at 11:23 am
A good place to refer to is the Hurt report of 1981. This is still regarded as the moscomprehensive study on motorcycle accidents and Causative factors. After studying thousands of accidents over a period of numerous years; the study showed that rider education, rider experience, and protective gear were the most significant safety factors. The Hurt report also stated that conspicuity was vitally important. This is where the loud pipes fans can get excited. Not so fast though, the Hurt study covered thousands of motorcycle collisions over years time. What they looked for is common themes in causative factors about motorcycle accidents. The only mention about conspicuity was confined to visual. Bright colors or farings and windshields. There was no time that the Hurt study ever mentioned loud exhausts, or found this as a contributing factor to safety. With the searching they did for common themes, if loud pipes were a legitimate factor in safety they would have identified this. Report this post
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roy · September 6, 2012 at 9:22 am
lon ” you have come a long way ” very nice of dan to upgrade you maybe one day you can meet his level… fine fellow he is ..and he has LIVED IN SCOTLAND .. well lon if our ”increasingly mongrelized america” seems to upset you ..you should move back to the pure world of inbreeding.. drink some of that very fine single malt,blow into you lamb lungs,eat some of that ground up guts, and ponder the question how the mongrelized americans cut all you pipers to pieces in a place call new orleans .a few years ago…how indeed ???
Dan · September 6, 2012 at 6:54 am
LOL…..as my nearby neighbor would say, “No worries, mate!”….
As I stated, you have come a long way SINCE June 15….and since July 9 FOLLOWS June 15, it was noted, and included in my evaluation of your attitude. lol
By the way, I am of Scottish descent, of the Reynolds clan ( you cannot call yourself a “Scot” unless you were BORN in, and have LIVED IN, Scotland….a far cry from our increasingly mongrelized America, eh? )
Anyway, since that IS my ancestry, I can jokingly say “Aye, dun be a bloody tadger…loud pipes save lives!” lol
Lon · September 5, 2012 at 7:01 pm
Whoa, big fella.
Dan, if you are going to quote me from way back in June, I hope you will also consider my posts on July 9th since they gave a specific example of the Napoleons I was thinking of but did not describe well enough in June.
I did not mean to imply that all loud pipers were Napoleons, just the ones who were jerks, like the one in this excerpt:
” I saw a group of bikes leave a traffic light the other day. The loudest bike had an impotent moron with a Napoleon complex driving it. How do I know this? Prior to taking off and in between each gear he revved the bike to the red-line repeatedly before engaging the clutch – “look at me, look at me!â€. Sad, pathetic case really.”
And for the record, I don’t mess with loud pipers – they are like as not to whack me with their cabers if I do and, they are usually going “full regimental” under those kilts. So we don’t want them spinning those cabers in anger to be sure! No one wants to see that / those.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caber_toss
Dan · September 5, 2012 at 6:17 pm
LOL….Lon, you have come a long way….from your post of June 15, where you implied that those with “loud pipes” somehow had “inadequacies” or “Napoleon complexes”, which leaned you dangerously to the left, to checking out the true definition of the word “liberal”, and seeing just how distant the modern, freedom stealing, progressive democrats actually are from that true meaning….verifying their hypocrisy…..to this last post where you show that you, like me, have a true regard for the life of all of God’s hard working, non whining creatures, even the lowly little rodent, the squirrel……Good show! lol
However, I must caution you….do not be too quick to encourage this “software engineer”, Hugh. He just may be a “wolf in sheep’s clothing”….another false “Hawaiian” messiah.
He freely admits that he would prefer total silence….clearly a leftist progressive attitude….while at the same time “promising” to appease those of us that truly enjoy the resulting melody from a big bore, V-Twin Milwaukee machine, as it causes us to smile while we glide down the highways and by-ways of America…..the land of the free.
Just remember, there are often “unintended consequences” of these false prophets, with their modern “panaceas” and promises to “bring us together”, i.e “free” obama-care, with it’s higher taxes, loss of jobs, less research, fewer doctors, rationed medical service, DEATH PANELS, etc….and it was people of his type that created the transistor, then the circuit board, then the micro chip…..leading to the now infamous, universally dreaded, scourge of delicate ear drums everywhere….especially Daytona Beach, Florida…..the portable “Boom Box”!
So, the “cycle” begins again…..lol
Lon · September 4, 2012 at 4:23 pm
Hugh, what a brilliant idea.
If I may be permitted, once the rider has made all of his/her selections from the extensive menu, the actual device could be activated by pressing a little button on the handlebars with the rider’s left thumb. What an innovation!
It is bound to save lives – hopefully of bike riders but most certainly of squirrels of all colors.
Hugh · September 4, 2012 at 1:02 pm
I’m actually looking forward to the day when I can ride an electric motorcycle. I would prefer to have total silence other than road and wind noise. That would make it easier to hear the gal in the SUV who is doing her fingernails, texting, eating a bowl of fruit loops and driving by braille. For the rest of you, when that day comes, being a software engineer, I will design an electronic exhaust simulator and it will have switches so you can set the volume, select the number of cylinders and whether you would prefer 2 stroke or 4 stroke.
roy · September 4, 2012 at 12:23 pm
christ guys your the one calling names, ranting about l vs rt. do you ever read what you write .i am sure every else has ..lets hear it for them folks…any way great fun , laws done in calif , and we never settled loud pipes, who cares right, its all in the eyes of the beholder or traffic cop who will read your mufflers to see if the say it passed the EPA fed DOT regs if not … ticket . so life goes on and yes i will not answer any more on this subject…as i need to knock out the baffles in my mufflers while the rear tire is off to be changed along with the sprockets and chain ….lets see hole saw here, remove packing there, himmmm this just might work and look stock ….bye guys …carry on or lets try rt vs left on … the helmets thread ” should i have to where a helmet ” or ” its my choise to go brain dead while everyone else picks up the bill for tubes shoved up my ……for the next 30 years”…. see you there …
Lon · September 4, 2012 at 8:55 am
Dan, you may be onto something by introducing us to Roy’s Mom.
I think Roy has lived so long in his parents’ basement, that he has come to sincerely believe that “The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few”.
Vern Rosa · September 4, 2012 at 4:42 am
Dan, please don’t encourage Roy. I was hopeful he was being truthful when he said he would stop. I’ve had more than enough of his diatribes.
Dan · September 4, 2012 at 4:39 am
LOL….Roy, you’re a lot of fun.
Does this last post, with all capitals, mean that you are actually “shouting” at the top of your lungs? LOL
I hope your mom put your bib on….you’re probably drooling, too. LOL
roy · September 4, 2012 at 4:33 am
SEE EVERYONE …HOW EASY THIS IS.. I WILL STOP UNLESS I HEAR FROM THOSE THAT WANT MORE ..OR MAYBE YOUR JUST PLAIN FINISHED AND NEED TO VOTE MAYBE OBAMA WILL FIX THE ” LOUD PIPES SAVE LIVES ” .. … SORRY ONE LAST TURN ..
Dan · September 4, 2012 at 4:23 am
Hello Roy,
While your post is probably one of your “better” ones, ( only in that it isn’t a totally emotion filled rant ), I see that you still can’t say more than a few lines without some form of derogatory name calling, i.e. “politic nut cases”, (your words). That seems to be the common thread of thought of those that are “politically challenged”, as in modern day “liberals”.
To try to pass off your many, many, anger filled posts to this thread as simply a jocular “yanking your chain” ….as if you “really” are just kidding…..rings pretty hollow to anyone who has actually read them. Also, if you are going to use such acronyms, you really should keep them straight, as in there’s “yanking your chain”, and there’s “yanking your crank”, but, to my knowledge, there is no “cranking your chain”. That type of mix up indicates that the poster is so full of emotion that he is not even aware of what he is saying….and certainly isn’t proofreading his own words because he is in such a hurry to “defend” himself from what he perceives as an “attack”, instead of a “friendly disagreement”. That’s another example of how modern day “liberals”, especially our politicians, are always having to “back track”, say that their words were “taken out of context, or “Well, that’s NOT what the president meant to say”, i.e. “You have a business?…YOU didn’t build that!…someone else built that.”….Did obama say that?…yes….did he mean it?…yes….was he surprised at the negative feedback he got for it?….DEFINITELY!…..I’m surprised he didn’t say “I was just yanking your chain!” lol
Whatever your feelings and opinions, one should always be truthful, and speak their mind…..MOST people ( non “liberals” ) will respect that. It’s the wavering, the back tracking, and the out right lying about what they said, or really meant, when it is painfully obvious to all, how they feel about something, and what they actually said, that shows someone is being dishonest.
“Friendly” debates become political when one side simply can not stand the fact that there are many others who disagree with them, and therefore, what THEY desire is, most likely, NOT going to come about without government intervention, or that, while there may be some who AGREE with them, those people still have enough of the “American spirit” in them, to NOT think that we need another law ( “liberal” democrat inspired” ) to decide the issue, while recognizing that there are some…as there always are….who will, obnoxiously, “push the envelope”, and cause others to be upset ( in this case, very loud exhaust pipes )….it’s part of “freedom of choice”, and something that those of us who simply want to be left alone to enjoy our lives, are willing to put up with….for that precious freedom.
If you really can’t understand “how anyone can dump left vs right into a loud muffler reply”, well then, maybe I haven’t been quite basic enough in my explanation of it…..but I actually think that you really DO understand….you simply don’t like the argument.
You ask the question “can the laft muffler be loud, and the right be stock….that would make all the poltic nut cases happy on loud mufflers”. My answer is “yes”, theoretically, the “left muffler” could be loud and the right be stock, but in reality that is most likely not the case. While it is very true that the “right muffler” could be, and IS stock in many cases, the posts to this thread show quite clearly that the “left muffler” is, almost certainly, NOT going to be “loud”….and those CHOICES are fine with almost all NON modern day liberals, for it is the INDIVIDUAL CHOICE that is the key, and at the heart of this issue….NOT what the actual muffler they choose sounds like.
I guess, to me, this argument…..as almost ALL arguments do in these days of the progressive/democrat “nanny state” obama-ites….comes down to this…..
Loud “obnoxious” motorcycle exhausts….”BAD”!…..
Quiet, possibly more “rider-risky”, motorcycle exhausts…”GOOD”!….
The precious FREEDOM TO CHOOSE either exhaust….”PRICELESS”!
If you can’t understand that…..you simply are not trying.
roy · September 3, 2012 at 10:08 am
gee guys the laws past .. hey if you read what i say you know I AM JUST YANKING YOUR CHAIN because every come back is rt vs left ..and its to good to pass up , how anyone can dump left vs right . into a loud muffler reply is just to good to pass up…can the laft muffler be loud and the right be stock .. that would make all the poltic nut cases happy on loud mufflers …and the cross over pipe well that could cover everyone else …well ther i go cranking your chain again …its just way tooooooooo easy …. ok wait for it ……..next
Dan · September 2, 2012 at 4:32 am
My goodness, Lon….you are truly a “gentleman and a scholar”!…..Very well written.
Now, please excuse me as, until the MODERN DAY “liberals” totally disassociate themselves from that label, and they ALL take up their TRUE one of “progressive”, I still feel the sudden urge to “upchuck” at the mere mention of myself as a “liberal”. lol
P.S. “Blipped” my throttle at a little black squirrel yesterday as he was heading toward the blacktop….he stopped, looked, and ran back from the roadway…..I know the little critters aren’t HUMAN lives….but I still think it points out the utter nonsense of the “Doppler Effect” argument preventing sound from emanating FORWARD….and, later in the day, as I was returning home from the local shopping mall, I saw a BRIGHT YELLOW, very visible, BMW RS1100GS (at least that is what was written on the gas tank ), have to swerve quickly to his left and brake, to avoid the female driver of an Audi SUV, as she moved, without signaling, from the center lane, in front of my van, to the left lane that the BMW rider….with his “divinely silent” exhaust…..just happened to be occupying…..it made me wonder….is there such a thing as a “visual Doppler Effect”?
Lon · September 1, 2012 at 7:16 pm
Dan, the great thing about being true liberals, like you and I, is that even if we disagree about a lot of things, we will defend each other’s right to the opinion we don’t agree with – more vigorously than we will defend our own view.
The principle that one’s freedom to hold whatever opinion one likes is more important than the opinion itself, is the most noble of all our liberal principles. That is why, two classic liberals can disagree on everything yet be the best of friends, neighbors, countrymen or the staunchest of allies.
This is not what the modern day crowd (that tries to wrap itself in the term “liberal”) believes should be done with dissenting opinion. They believe it can be suppressed by “voting” it out of existence. Worse, they believe it should be suppressed by voting it out of existence.
Dan · September 1, 2012 at 5:31 am
Lon….reading your posts is very enjoyable. They are calm and intelligent, and with just a couple of very minor exceptions, I find that we are in almost complete agreement. Thank you.
Roy….as a very great man once said…”There you go again”. While you continue to classify my replies as “rants”, I assume because I point out that it is those of the modern, politically liberal mindset that always seem to get so emotionally upset and want to pass yet another law, when they find others enjoying their lives, but coming into conflict with your views of “the way things ought to be”, I disagree, and don’t think you quite know what the word “rant” actually means….
The American Heritage Dictionary defines “rant and rave” this way…..”Talk loudly and vehemently, especially in anger, as in There you go again, ranting and raving about the neighbor’s car in your driveway ( or in this case, “loud pipes” ) . This idiom is a redundancy, since rant and rave mean just about the same thing, but probably survives on account of its alliterative appeal.”
While I understand your passion on this subject, I do feel that you are almost becoming irrational about it. Your last few posts, ending in “next”, seem to indicate that somehow you think you are “winning” this debate….I don’t think that’s true, and, since I have already stated that I don’t believe any of our posts have actually changed anyone’s mind, I can only say that, if anything, your very emotional out bursts hurt your argument.
While I am NOT calling you anything, I feel that the use of an old, conservative saying, about trying to have an intelligent debate with a liberal is like “trying to pick up a turd by the clean end …,it’s impossible”.
Happy trails.